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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2002 : 16:44:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wait a second, evolution is not a fact. No one has ever proven evolution to be true for it is impossible to prove. Unless you could go back in time to the beginning of evolution and watch it happen, then you could prove it. Evolution is the best theory we have for explaining the existence of life on this planet. But it is just that, a theory. Evolution could someday be proven to be false just like Christianity might be proven to be false as well. Therefore you do believe in evolution because you must use some degree of fatih in taking it to be true. It might be a very small degree, but it is still there. I merely wished to point out that small degree of faith.
I am guessing that you would have acquitted OJ Simpson with reasoning like this. I am hoping that in your journey to becoming a mechanical engineer that you take some science courses and learn how a case is built with facts. You will also learn that in science "theory" is basically fact. Christianity is not even a theory because it has no facts, no case.....nothing but plagarized mythology. You will find it hard to be taken seriously if you continue to spout uninformed Christian rhetoric about Evolution being a mere theory AND talking it up about a Christian theory that does not even exist.
I have a definition from Websters, too.
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
To talk of evolution and faith in the same sentence does nothing but demonstrate the ignorance of the one that said it. Like I said, take some science courses, spend years and years going over all of the evidence that supports the theory of evolution and you will wish you hadn't said that.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 17:02:20 [Permalink]
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Re: Sturgeon: "God Body". I have only a secondhand description from a Christian acquaintance.
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Anyway, I hope to last longer than the last creationist here too (because I take it they didn't stick around very long).
Didn't even stay to cook breakfast or cuddle.
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So if I ever go off on a moral trip or something, I leave it up to you to point that out (Believe me, I know you will).
Nah, not my style.
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The chances of evolution have been calculated by evolutionists to be small. I am NOT saying that evolutiion did not happen or is not happening now. Because we see life on this planet and because the best way to scientifically explain it is evolution, you must accept the odds that come along with it.
That's not true.
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How do you know that you haven't been brainwashed with atheism? Not saying that you have, just that it's a possibility if you accuse me of the same.
Nope. We're all born athiests, I more or less stayed that way. No conditioning either way, well, some towards Christianity.
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And I didn't seek out this board. I found it because I was looking for people's responses to creationism. This board came up pretty high. I was intrigued by what everyone had to say and wanted to join the discussion. By challenging me, you have made me question my own beliefs. I want to return the favor. But that does not explain why I would tell you that I profess Christ.
Nifty. Have fun.
And no it dosen't, so, you'll have to tell us.
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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SueW0
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 19:48:47 [Permalink]
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Yea, I think that's why people don't (and should not unless they have a pretty good reason) believe Christianity.
I never had a good reason to believe it, myself. You haven't given us one.
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Sue thinks that deep down, I know Christianity is not true. That means I am liar in everything that I do because I live my life according to something I really know is false.
No, it means you just want to believe it, and you're trying really hard to believe it, but some part of you knows better. Can you disprove it? (really evil grin)
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Wait a second, evolution is not a fact.
Actually, it is. See http://www.talk.origins if you haven't already. I recommend "God and Evolution" among others.
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I don't believe I am being silly either.
I believe you are. Who's right?
Do you really think you can somehow answer each and every objection to Christianity that has ever been raised in all of history, in a few posts? If so, you really are naive.
Sue
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SueW0
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 23:11:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wait a second, evolution is not a fact. No one has ever proven evolution to be true for it is impossible to prove. Unless you could go back in time to the beginning of evolution and watch it happen, then you could prove it. Evolution is the best theory we have for explaining the existence of life on this planet. But it is just that, a theory. Evolution could someday be proven to be false just like Christianity might be proven to be false as well. Therefore you do believe in evolution because you must use some degree of fatih in taking it to be true. It might be a very small degree, but it is still there. I merely wished to point out that small degree of faith.
Wait a second, gravitation is not a fact. No one has ever proven gravitation to be true for it is impossible to prove. Unless you could go back in time to the beginning of gravitation and watch it happen, then you could prove it. Gravitation is the best theory we have for explaining the existence of life on this planet. But it is just that, a theory. Gravitation could someday be proven to be false just like Christianity might be proven to be false as well. Therefore you do believe in gravitation because you must use some degree of fatih in taking it to be true. It might be a very small degree, but it is still there. I merely wished to point out that small degree of faith.
Ian Andreas Miller. DIES GAUDII. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 05:11:42 [Permalink]
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Ah yes, the Faith of the Theory Of Evolution(The sharks begin to home in on the tantalizing scent of fresh meat in the water).
I have no faith in the Theory on Evolution what so ever, nor do I 'believe' in it as one might believe a gospel. Hell, I don't even have a picture of Darwin on the wall (although I do have a Darwin fish on my truck - just doing my small part to piss off the religous right). I merely accept the Theory as the best explanation for certain, biological phenomena to be advanced thus far.
Remember, a theory is nothing more than an explanation of known facts. It will be changed and modified as other facts come to light.
Now then, all you've got to do is find a single fossil in the wrong strata - a genuine one, not some of Kent Hovind's wishful dreaming - to debunk it. Then, I'll drop the Theory with no regrest and go on to the truth, whatever it might be. Thus far those sorts of fossils are even less common than eyebrows on eggs. Indeed, quite the contrary. As you will see when / if you visit http://www.talkorigins.org/ there are a lot of transitional fossils in existance. And more are found every year.
Be careful at talkorigons. It's an easy site to get addicted to.
What many Creationists can't seem to get through their cast iron skulls is that as soon as you start relying on the supernatural for an explanation, you are no longer doing science. Face it, anything can be explained by saying, "God made it that way!" Sorry folks, but that won't cut it in the real world.
luck,
f
"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."
- Albert Einstein
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 10:11:18 [Permalink]
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I meant that you need to know what you believe before you can even know why.
I think you have the order wrong, although it is correct for christians. You should know the "what" and the "why" before you even think about believing anything.
I have found in the many decades that I've been asking christians "why" they believe they invariably answer by telling me "what" they believe instead.
Just that I am not idly sitting there while someone feeds me what I believe.
When you are done flattering yourself perhaps you could explain why--since you claim an original thought processes-- your conclusions, and language, are an exact match to the fundie's?
However, this doesn't mean that because you believe in a story that's very highly improbable you don't have the ability to discern.
No, it doesn't. But believing in an improbable story without any supporting evidence does mean that you lack the ability to discern, since it is evidence and logic which guide discernment.
There are multiple definitions (of religion) or contexts, so I should say which one.
I checked two dictionaries for the definition of religion. The definition you used to distance christianity wasn't in either. You can't make up new meanings for common words and expect other people to understand what you are talking about.
When talking of Christianity in a class called History of Western Civilization, my history book for stated that "This new religion [Christianity] hardly looked religious… It is in this way that I believe Christianity to not be religious.
Maybe it's not too late to get a refund on you tuition
First, Christianity does not require you to do any works,
I can never understand why some protestants brag about this. The bible says in 13 places that you are saved by "faith alone." However it says in 14 places that you are not saved by faith alone ( http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html ) That's a pretty even split. But when you get rid of "works" --i.e.: good deed doing--you lose the ONLY socially redeeming quality christianity has.
Second, Christianity teaches grace.
Now there's a slippery word if ever there was one. No two flavors of christian define it the same way. You'll have to tell us what you mean by the word before we can make a meaningful reply.
There are no "supernatural constraints" or "sanctions" on a Christian, they are free to do whatever they want.
The HELL you say?
… you can judge a denomination or a church by examining it's doctrine.
Judge not least ye be judged.
What say we use the standards of reality and history to judge these doctrines, instead of the ridiculous practice of comparing them to themselves?
Just because something is true doesn't mean it must be explainable.
If you lack an explanation, if you have no proof, then you have no way of knowing that what you are saying is true. If you declare something is true, that you have no way of knowing, you are lying. If you say that there is a god, there is a christ, and you cannot prove it then you are lying. It doesn't even matter if you find out later on that there really were. At the time you are saying it you had no way of knowing--therefore you are lying.
My advice is that for the sake of honesty and your personal integrity that you stop professing christ until such time that you can back up your claim with evidence.
For example, you know you have conscience thought for you are reading this now. But who has yet to understand what thoughts really are or why we have them?
I don't know what century you are in but here in the 21st we have a pretty fair understanding of how brains work.
Wait a second, evolution is not a fact. No one has ever proven evolution to be true for it is impossible to prove.
I hate to be the one who breaks this to you son, but there is no controversy over evolution. It is a proven fact. There isn't even a need to go to the fossil record because it is observable in modern day animals--including you.
I don't believe I am being silly either. The chances of evolution have been calculated by evolutionists to be small.
You say "Evolutionist" as though it were a religious denomination. Do you mean Biologists? Cause if you do the chances they have predicted that evolution was and is occurring is not small. The chance is 100%
Because we see life on this planet and because the best way to scientifically explain it is evolution, you must accept the odds that come along with it. You didn't understand a word I wrote about the "odds" on events that already happened, did you?
I'll try again. Pick up a grain of sand on the beach. The odds that you would have picked up that particular grain are staggeringly small. However --since you have picked it up-- the odds that you did pick it up are 100%.
To talk about the odds of past events having happened is completely meaningless. I would be willing to bet that the minister who told you this understands it perfectly well but has such a low opinion of his "flock of sheep" that he says it to you anyway.
How do you know that you haven't been brainwashed with atheism?
By the process by which I became an Atheist.
No one constantly fed me dogma. No one instilled fear or guilt.
I did the research myself in a lengthy and concerted effort to prove that there was a god. I found that not only could I not prove that a god existed but no one who claimed one did could either.
Atheism, no matter what you have heard, is not a belief. It is the LACK of a belief. I have never seen a reason to believe--so I don't. It is not something I do, it is something I don't do.
By challenging me, you have made me question my own beliefs. I want to return the favor. But that does not explain why I would tell you that I profess Christ.
Actually you've been a bit lax in explaining why you do anything. All I've gotten from your talk of "change" is you profess christ because you feel like it. I don't even know why you would have wanted to change in the first place let alone why you think that myths from the Neolithic and Bronze Ages have any relevance for you.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 17:13:36 [Permalink]
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Why do they ALWAYS go away?
I never ever get to read the answers.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 19:49:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why do they ALWAYS go away?
It might be my breath. Maybe I need a new mouthwash.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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InChrist
New Member
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 22:25:04 [Permalink]
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Hey everyone.
Sorry I am taking so long to respond. I'm in the middle of some very difficult finals and won't have much time for a while.
First of all, I know that I cannot answer each and every objection to Christianity in a few posts. Like many of you have stated, faith cannot be proven by science. That doesn't mean I blindly believe anything, but that I carefully weigh the evidence (which is what I want to do here).
I find it disturbing that many people believe evolution to be a fact. I remember studying evolution and the "Scientific method" back in high school where it was clearly stated that a theory is not a fact. Even my science teacher, a staunch evolutionist, knew that. Some of you have said that if evidence was found that was contrary to evolution, you would not accept the theory. I like the post made by Antie because it illustrates what I am trying to say. The theory of gravity is also only a theory. Gravity can be observed by anyone, what goes up must come down. Everyone in the world accepts gravity as the best theory explaining this phenomenon. Every time you jump up in the air you are putting "faith" in the theory of gravity because you are counting on gravity to bring you back down to earth, otherwise you'd fly off into space and die. And even though we can observe gravity everywhere, we do not even know what it is or why it exists (although there are many hypotheses that attempt to explain it). I believe that the theory of gravity is going to be true 100% of the time, therefore, even though I cannot explain gravity, I won't go throw myself off a building to see if I'm right. Our criminal justice system operates the same way for it is based on theories that cannot be proven. A conviction must be based on evidence that is beyond a reasonable doubt. They tell the jurors that although no one can be 100% certain, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is enough to make a judgement. And our system makes mistakes. (For the record though, I believe that OJ did do it) None of what I just said was based on "Christian rhetoric." I am merely stating the fact that evolution is not a fact (You can ask any of my professors and they will say the same). This is not an attack on evolution or trying to disprove it for I know there's another forum on that topic. Let's look at the definition of faith that was stated here, "firm belief in something that cannot be proven." Now let's look at the definition of theory;
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
Nowhere in this definition can we find that a theory can be proven, merely accepted. If it cannot be proven, but is accepted, then by the definition of faith given here, one must have faith to accept the theory.
That's all the time I have right now for I have to get back to studying. I want to be able to read at www.talkorigins.com but will have to wait a little longer.
Grace and Peace
Josh
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2002 : 01:49:06 [Permalink]
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Hi, Josh, and best of luck with your finals.
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I carefully weigh the evidence (which is what I want to do here).
Very good, but could you, please, present your evidence for your belief in your religion? Personally, I have yet to find any real evidence of Christianity. I am not even aware of a single piece of first hand recorded history, or archaeological evidence which is not shrouded in serious allegations of fraud. However, I do want to know.
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I find it disturbing that many people believe evolution to be a fact.
And, you don't find it disturbing that many people believe completely unsupported stories of miracles, and rationally absurd stories of supernatural events to be facts?
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Some of you have said that if evidence was found that was contrary to evolution, you would not accept the theory.
I would not be so bold as to make such an off handed remark. If evidence seemed contrary to any component of evolution, I would still carefully weigh the evidence, and the veracity of the new claim.
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Every time you jump up in the air you are putting "faith" in the theory of gravity because you are counting on gravity to bring you back down to earth, otherwise you'd fly off into space and die.
Every time I jump into the air, my experience and knowledge of the observed properties of nature tell me that I will come back to the ground. This has nothing to do with the reason why. The reason why is called the theory of gravity. I put no faith in the theory of gravity, but accept it at face value as the best explanation offered to date for this natural phenomenon.
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They tell the jurors that although no one can be 100% certain, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is enough to make a judgement. And our system makes mistakes.
And, science has made mistakes, also. But, that is the beauty of science, and our justice system. They both accept the fact that mistakes will be made, and attempt to learn from those mistakes. Theology, on the other hand, admits to no mistakes of the major assertions, and admits only grudgingly to the little mistakes, blaming them on the corruptions of man, rather than a flaw in it's doctrine.
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For the record though, I believe that OJ did do it
As for me, I don't know if O.J. did it, and never will, because I wasn't there. However, the evidence that I am familiar with would lead me to vote for his conviction.
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Nowhere in this definition can we find that a theory can be proven, merely accepted.
Now, we are falling into a philosophical realm where nothing can be proven absolutely. The difference in faith and a theory goes far beyond this simple straw man argument. A scientific theory requires evidence which leads to an hypothesis. Then, the evidence must be weighed to see if it is rational in that the conclusion follows the premises, and supports the hypothesis. It must be non-falsifiable, in that we can imagine a test to support the claim. Then, the test must be replicable, because mistakes do happen. Then, we must put these tests before peer review. Once, all this happens, we have a theory, and natural selection and punctuated equilibrium passes these tests. Unfortunately, faith, and the majority of religion cannot develop beyond the hypothesis stage, and that's being nice. Religions such as Christianity are based solely on authority, with not a shred of observable and verifiable evidence to support it's claims outside of the arena fantastic assertions, circular argument, and biased historical interpretation.
And, Josh, I do not consider myself an atheist because that completely eliminates any chance of a creator, and even though I have found no evidence to support the claim of any form of supernatural creation, there may still be a chance. Afterall, there is still a chance I may win the lottery, and I don't even play the thing.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2002 : 07:13:27 [Permalink]
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I find it disturbing that many people believe evolution to be a fact. I remember studying evolution and the "Scientific method" back in high school where it was clearly stated that a theory is not a fact.
I would be interested in knowing your definition of the terms 'theory', and 'evolution'.
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... evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next. - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes in Biology (5th ed. 1989 Worth Publishers, p.974)
Evolution is an observable fact.
{ I'm editing this to add the following reference: [ur]http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/SciLit.html[/url] }
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 05/05/2002 07:43:56 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2002 : 13:03:13 [Permalink]
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Josh, this is very scary stuff you are writing here.
I remember studying evolution and the "Scientific method" back in high school where it was clearly stated that a theory is not a fact. Even my science teacher, a staunch evolutionist, knew that. …I am merely stating the fact that evolution is not a fact (You can ask any of my professors and they will say the same).
Either your teachers know nothing about science or you are somehow being mislead. Reasonabledoubt is absolutely correct. Evolution is an observable fact. And in more than bacteria and fruit flies. We've seen it in Wallabies, leopard seals, white rhinos and even people. It is not something that only happened in the unobservable past it is happening at this very second.
I wonder if the problem you have is with ministers misguiding you, for I can think of no other explanation.
Much of your problem seems to be in understanding just how the English language works.
When you looked up the meaning of the word "faith" didn't you notice that it had several contradictory meanings? You must have noticed-since you did all that typing- that the word "theory" had six different, mutually exclusive, meanings.
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
What could be more different than these two definitions?
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE
Look at 5 & 6. Five is an understanding arrived at by studying the facts and six is nothing but an idle guess.
Ministers of some second string Protestant sects want you to believe that it is the Theory (6) of Evolution when in fact it is the Theory (5) of Evolution.
It is purposely misleading you. Much along the lines of if I told you that scientists falsely claim that elephants have trunks on the front of their faces. Jesus tells us that elephants don't own luggage!!! Ah ha!
The word "trunk" has as many diverse meanings (luggage, prehensile nose, body of a tree, loose fitting shorts, main line of a railroad, bundled electrical cables, etc) as the word "theory" has. You would think me foolish if I tried to switch definitions on you with the word "trunk" but you fall for it with the word "theory." Why is that? You do know better because you actually wrote out the various meanings.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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