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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 08/06/2002 : 09:50:35 [Permalink]
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The bombing campaigns are not part of any UN mandate. They are completely illegal. The original Gulf War violated the UN Charter, as the UN Charter states that countries must negotiate before they massacre one another. However, the Gulf War took place (after the US bribed and threatened) with the approval of the UN Security Council, however, the No-Fly Zones are not sanctioned at all by the UN. They are illegal. Whether the UN condemns them or not is immaterial.
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3) The UN has not condemned the US for bombing campaigns.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/06/2002 10:20:03 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 09:54:39 [Permalink]
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Richard Butler was taking orders from Sandy Berger, rather than the UN. This is a clear violation of the UN mandate. The sanctions and the bombing were in no way tied to weapons inspection, just a way for the U.S. to keep troops in the area, and to wait for an excuse to install their own regime as they've done in the past. See posts regarding Panama for a good example.
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5) The inspectors said that Saddam called them before the bombing to invite the inspectors back over and comply with the resolutions. So far he has done that five times. Each time, he backtracks. It was not reasonable to believe him now. The UN inspectors said that their job was impossible to do if they were denied access to the sites in question. Or do you have evidence to the contrary?
6) Although the accusation that some US inspectors doubled as spies was probably accurate, Iraq expelled all US inspectors citing possible espionage as a reason. This was an attempt to not include any US inspectors. Iraq knew that US inspectors were less likely to be subject to intimidation.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 09:41:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
The inspectors were withdrawn by the UN because of the impending bombing attack. They were not expelled. They have not been allowed to return (as if Iraq could stop them) because of the problem of U.S. skulduggery.
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6) Although the accusation that some US inspectors doubled as spies was probably accurate, Iraq expelled all US inspectors citing possible espionage as a reason. This was an attempt to not include any US inspectors. Iraq knew that US inspectors were less likely to be subject to intimidation.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Ah, yes. The old "the US is evil" Chomski defense. When I was watching interviews with UN inspectors, they mentioned that they were denied access to suspected weapon sites and the US inspectors were all suspected of espionage by the Iraqi government. Something that the UN inspectors indicated as absurd.
Skulldugery my hindquarters. Saddam is attempting to hide what weapons programs he has left. Other UN inspectors left because they felt it was impossible to do their job. As the inspectors had no armed contingent with them, why do you think that Iraq would be powerless to stop inspectors? Iraq still has a large standing army and quite a bit of materiel. Countries have acted unilateraly in the past. Since the bombing was termed a punitive strike and did not include the taking of land, the UN did not condemn it. Something that Iraq's siezing of Kuwait did include.
Again you term the action against Iraq as illegal in the matter of the Gulf War but you give no example of what makes it illegal. Can you quote the place in the charter where it forbids the defending of member nations against aggression? Also, we have been over the whole "negotiation" bit before. Iraq was unwilling to negotiate.
Even though nations have the power to act unilaterally for their own protection and interests, this does not preclude the nation against whom the action is taken to defend itself. If Iraq wants to attack the US in retaliation for strikes made against them, they are free to. Just don't be surprized if the US destroys the attack before it gets here.
The US inspectors would be taking orders from US interests and reporting those results to the UN under the mandate of the resolution. The US has expressed a desire for regime change. But that regime change must happen internally with Iraq. If the US government wanted Saddam Hussien killed, it would have done it long ago. My brother-in-law is a green beret and had a clear shot at Saddam during Desert Storm. He couldn't take it because he lacked authorization.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 10:30:06 [Permalink]
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Another believer in evil spirits.
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Ah, yes. The old "the US is evil"
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 11:54:03 [Permalink]
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Just a quick search of the Washington Post:
Colum Lynch
April 7, 2000; Page A22
Section: A Section
Word Count: 186
Hans Blix, the Swedish chairman of a new U.N. arms inspection agency for Iraq, issued plans today to require inspectors to undergo training on Iraqi cultural sensitivities and to vow not to reveal the agency's secrets to their own governments.The staff requirements for the new U.N. Monitoring Verification and Inspection Commission, or UNMOVIC, are designed to prevent any country from using it to spy on Iraq, as the United States did with the previous agency, known as UNSCOM.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 11:58:55 [Permalink]
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I've stated before in these fora that the UN Charter states that countries must negotiate before they start massacring each other.
I've posted the exact place you can find that information on the internet, so you can look for it yourself.
If you'll recall it was George Bush that said there would be no negotiations, and you can't blame that on anyone else as much as you think reality is evil.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 15:47:49 [Permalink]
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First off, the UN is not the global government (yet), so why you think the US is required to clear everything we do with them, escapes me. Remember, the UN was so ineffectual that we pushed for the Bosnia mess to be run under NATO. The UN is a speed bump, nothing more. It's been shown many times over to be nothing more than a blanket organization for world powers to use when it's convienant. When we want to do something that may not go over well, we hide behind the UN for global legitimacy. Left to it's own, the UN crumbles. The debacle in Somalia (the reason we were there was to protect UN convoys, not to hand out food) proves that without major backing from legitimate governments, the UN is a joke. A front.
Mike New was a hero for refusing to wear that powder blue beret.
A league of Nations is a League of Nations. Give it a different name, it is still as worthless.
Gorgo is just another conspiracy theorist. There's always a few that think they're witty for spouting the most unpopular view given any situation. In fact, he spouts other people's views mostly. I've yet to see an original idea, just quotes and cut and paste.
As for sanctions hurting the civilian Iraqis. Boo Hoo. Saddam is little more than a terrorist with a palace. Several, in fact. I honestly haven't cared, nor will I care about suffering Iraqis over the threat Iraq poses to GLOBAL stability. Oil is the foundation for world economy, and we serve the greater good by (trying) to keep a lid on that region. Nice? No. Reality? Yes.
If sanctions hobble his military to the point where he can't wantonly invade neighbors (as he did continuously from 1980 until we shut him down in '91), commit genocide and use WMD, or cost the life of a single American soldier- then I consider the collateral damage justified to America. Maybe not to other countries, or those who would sit on the fence quibbling over 'moral' issues. But I've been to the Gulf, I've been on UN led fiascos, and I've buried good friends that died needlessly when a good round of carpet bombing Bahgdad would have sufficed.
If anything we have wasted too much time and effort trying not to hurt the civilians.
It's Saddam's fault that his weapons program and re-armament takes priority over feeding the populace. Given more resources, they would simply go into Iraqs war machine. This is history, go read it since obviously you were never there. Only a regime change will change anything there. And only Saddam suffering from some well-deserved "Lead Poisoning" will cause a regime change. Only then will any true relief come to the Iraqis. Given a regime that wasn't run by a mass-murdering, child killing, despot, the US (or the UN if you prefer the facade of 'gloabal legitimacy') can offer real aid to the Iraqis, and know it's helping them, not a nuclear weapons program.
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 18:51:39 [Permalink]
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C'mon guys, where's your applause?
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Gorgo is just another conspiracy theorist. There's always a few that think they're witty for spouting the most unpopular view given any situation. In fact, he spouts other people's views mostly. I've yet to see an original idea, just quotes and cut and paste.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 19:25:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
C'mon guys, where's your applause?
Well, if you really want to know, I do find myself becoming a SollyLama fan. He hasn't said much of anything I don't agree with, or at least seems to be along the same lines as my own thinking for the most part, I believe...
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 19:52:06 [Permalink]
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Applause? I'm waiting till he tells us something we don't already know.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 02:25:35 [Permalink]
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Phew! Had me going there for a while. I thought you'd slobber all over this guy and his racist remarks and ad hominem attacks.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/08/2002 02:27:43 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 04:45:50 [Permalink]
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The point of bringing up international law is not to get into the fine points of who is bound by international law and why, but to say that the US does not attempt to live up to the ideals that it would like to make us think it promotes, and it expects a higher standard from others than it expects from itself.
If the US breaks international law, it's necessary in the name of fighting Satan's minions, if some regime commits the same act, its innocent, often captive population must suffer the consequences.
T.D., if you think this young person is serious, and you think I'm some kind of wacko Conspiracy Theorist, bring up some reasonable evidence. Otherwise, don't react as though this gentleman has made a reasonable statement.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2002 : 07:45:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've stated before in these fora that the UN Charter states that countries must negotiate before they start massacring each other.
I've posted the exact place you can find that information on the internet, so you can look for it yourself.
If you'll recall it was George Bush that said there would be no negotiations, and you can't blame that on anyone else as much as you think reality is evil.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
And we have stated that Iraq did not negotiate with Quwait before invading it. The negotiations consisted of the UN demanding that Iraq stop occupying Quwaiti land. The US siad they would not negotiate (i.e. accept anything less than Iraq's total pull out from Quwait.). We have been over this before that it was a form of negotiation. Something that you refuse to acknowledge.
You also completely ignore Kofi's (sp) mention of non-cooperation by Iraq with weapons inspectors. Weapons inspection where the inspectors report back to their home country is common in situations where a country looses a war on their own soil. Ask Germany, Italy, and Japan.
Really, Gorgo, I can empathise with your pacifism, but your method is illogical and conspiratorial.
Bush the younger is suggesting a unilateral invasion of Iraq. Bad idea. Something that Congress isn't too keen on. Our allies have even less enthusiasm for it. The Gulf war had the justification of Quwait. This has no such justification. Bombing, maybe. Invasion, no.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2002 : 08:46:37 [Permalink]
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I don't know that Iraq didn't attempt to deal with its grievances with Kuwait some other way, but it's irrelevant to U.S. actions. The U.S. has no right to attack other countries at will. If it does, then everyone does. Pacifism has nothing to do with that, or most of what I've said here.
As far as your remark about conspiratorial, please offer some reasonable evidence if you wish to use labels that are taken by some as to mean wacko conspiracy theorist.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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