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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2001 : 07:03:14 [Permalink]
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Rubysue, you're my new hero. Well said.
My kids still love me. |
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The Bad Astronomer
Skeptic Friend
137 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2001 : 12:40:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rubysue, you're my new hero. Well said.
Yeah, what he said. Wow.
RubySue, I agree with you totally. I have had this conversation many times. I still think the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, is just about the coolest document ever written. I wish everyone in this country would read it every year...
... and the Fourth is just around the corner. Hmmm, maybe I'll just download a copy now and refamiliarize myself with it.
*****
The Bad Astronomer
badastro@badastronomy.com
http://www.badastronomy.com |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2001 : 18:48:41 [Permalink]
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To Garrette and BA: I humbly bow to your very kind comments.  I enjoyed writing my posts on this topic and am amazed at how strongly I hold this opinion on the need to keep our fundamental human rights. Yes, we are indeed fortunate that this amazing core group of individuals (Adams, Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Paine, Franklin, etc.) stepped light-years beyond any contemporary experiments in government, rejected the role of kings & queens, and "crowned" the individual with inalienable rights. Granted, these rights were not extended to everyone at the time they were formulated, but that rectification came with hard experience and maturity.
To Bestonnet_00, et. al.: One more time: NO TESTS for voting "privileges"! Voting is a right, not a privilege to be granted by arbitrary judgements from other flawed human beings.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2001 : 20:18:07 [Permalink]
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An interesting coincidence: Just tonight, my history teacher related a story about his first time voting. He had just turned 21 (this was before it was lowered to 18). He paid a poll tax (which black people at the time could little afford), and he also told us about the 'literacy' test he took. There were two tests. A "White" test, and a "Black" test. The "white" test consisted of 20 true/false questions. No problem there.
He then told the woman at the polling place, "I'd like to take the "black" test please." She wasn't too happy, called his father, and asked why his son was here being a troublemaker. He convinced his dad to tell the lady to let him take it.
He was sat in a room with about 20 mostly uneducated black people, and proceeded to answer questions like "Please quote the Preamble to the Constitution", and "Please explain the relevance of the Bill of Rights, and the amendments of the Constitution."
Shameful. 
Rubysue, you said: quote:
Voting is a right, not a privilege to be granted by arbitrary judgements from other flawed human beings.
What makes a right not what you just described? (I agree with you about the principle of voting and all, but it seems to me that rights are just priviledges granted to us by social contract.)
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2001 : 20:28:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
...and he also told us about the 'literacy' test he took. There were two tests. A "White" test, and a "Black" test. The "white" test consisted of 20 true/false questions. No problem there.
He then told the woman at the polling place, "I'd like to take the "black" test please." She wasn't too happy, called his father, and asked why his son was here being a troublemaker. He convinced his dad to tell the lady to let him take it.
He was sat in a room with about 20 mostly uneducated black people, and proceeded to answer questions like "Please quote the Preamble to the Constitution", and "Please explain the relevance of the Bill of Rights, and the amendments of the Constitution."
Shameful. ...
Shameful in the extreme!
I'd like to know, TD, when and where this took place. I have of course read about this sort of thing, but I've never heard about it from a witness (well, second-hand).
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2001 : 23:09:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
What makes a right not what you just described? (I agree with you about the principle of voting and all, but it seems to me that rights are just priviledges granted to us by social contract.)
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Yes, it is an interesting coincidence that your history professor has confirmed how arbitrary voting "rights" were at that stage in his life.
I'm not sure how to begin this discussion, on fundamental rights versus privileges. I agree that many times (or almost all the time) a "right" really is a privilege that is granted by a social contract or a dictator (picture, if you will, the old Soviet elections, where you numbly and obligingly voted for one party and/or one individual). Bear with me as I explore some personal philosophy for a few minutes (and, no, I'm not on drugs  nor have I watched too much "Star Trek"  ). I have a strange sense, observing humans at this midpoint of my life, that there is a foundation of fundamental humanistic tenets that act to ensure a vital and forward-looking civilization of sentient beings (these tenets were probably developed at some point in our evolution because they helped humans envision what the basics needs are for a peaceful and productive social structure). These tenets or synapse firings or whatever you call them most likely cannot be permanently revoked by any arbitrary construct of other humans (a religionist would tend to call these "god-given" tenets or rights - I prefer to call them the basic "graces" of Homo Sapiens, those attributes that seem to mysteriously endure, inspire, and allow us to evolve and grow). However, these same Homo Sapiens also suffer from a surfeit of other basic and ingrained "anti-graces", including a lust for power and control, a strong hatred of members of other tribes or nations, and a uncanny willingness to allow invisible gods or senior tribal elders dictate the course of action. This internal battle of "graces" and "anti-graces", IMHO, helps explain why members of the same human species that wrote the Bill of Rights and the Fifth Symphony can create concentration camps and slavery. I think that when the "graces" win out over the minds of humans, then those basic tenets or "rights" that tend to move us forward are enacted into social contracts. The human thoughts behind those "graces" understand that to continue building on a fundamental level of true social survival and growth, humans must have the fundamental right to decide their own fate and be free to verbalize on their role in that fate. Unfortunately, all too often in our journey as a sentient species, humans have succumbed to the lure of the "anti-graces" and moved swiftly to subdue others through sheer force or fear. But these situations usually doesn't last and are becoming rarer (I hope), because the "graces" are probably the strongest tenets within the human mind and our thoughts cannot be controlled. Perhaps one of the best books I've read that talks about choosing this optimistic fundamental nature in the face of complete tragedy and oppression was "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl - no, I'm not an existentialist or logotherapist (in other words, let's not go down that bunny trail), but Frankl had great wisdom in his observations of human free will and the choices we make in response to situations, what I would call choosing the "graces" as the foundation of a meaningful life.
So, there you have it, rubysue's whacked-out philosophy of why such things as voting (making decisions about your fate) and free speech and freedom to believe (or not) are fundamental human rights that endure beyond casual social privilege and contract (or, then again, maybe it was the two margaritas that led to this boring extemporaneous nonsense ).
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 06/28/2001 23:11:42 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 07:51:03 [Permalink]
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rubysue, a wonderful and elegant explanation! Very nice. 
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 08:10:23 [Permalink]
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My history teacher is one of those guys who has gone everywhere, done everything, and knows everybody. He has innumerable degrees in various subjects, and was a member of the Special Forces in Vietnam (he apparently did stuff that he can never talk about). I'll try to catch him after class on Monday and ask him about where exactly it was he first voted. We have a test then, so I don't know if I will be able to, but Tuesday I will.
He also mentioned a story about how he had just got back from Vietnam, to California. This was in the early 60's, before the Civil Rights act and all that. When he landed, he was given orders to take 3 groups of his Special Forces troops, fully equipped (M-14s, M-16s, grenades, etc.) and go to New Jersey. There was a race riot going on.
When he got there, the General in charge showed him where to go, and told him to take his troops in there and 'clean it out'. Now when a Special Forces company is ordered to 'clean' something out, it means there is going to be alot of deaths involved. (Their cleaning supplies consisted of said weapons above).
He flat out told that General that he will not ever fire upon American citizens. The General threatened to have him court-martialled. So my teacher calls Washington, and tells them what's going on. He said he still doesn't know to this day how the General that they sent out there to head off this planned massacre got there so fast.
In my teacher's words, "Can you imagine what would have happened had we gone in there?"
I sure can, and it makes me shudder just to think about it.
Right now we're talking about the American Revolution in detail. We've kinda backtracked now and are discussing some of the origins of the political theories involved in the Constitution. All about the Articles of Confederation, the various Acts they invoked, and some of the earlier laws and contracts and such that the colonies themselves wrote up before there was any notion of gaining independence.
Things like the Mayflower Contract (1620), the Fundamental Orders of Conneticut (considered the first written constitution in America, 1639), and how Roger Williams, who came over on the Mayflower with the Puritans, but wasn't Puritan himself, so they kicked him out. He and his followers went to Providence, RI, and established their own settlement, and as a result, enacted the very first Seperation of Church and State law.
Lots of interesting stuff in the details that one usually doesn't get in today's public education.
(If anyone is curious, I'm just taking a Western Civ class at a local community college because it's so dern interesting!  )
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 09:01:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
and how Roger Williams, who came over on the Mayflower with the Puritans, but wasn't Puritan himself, so they kicked him out. He and his followers went to Providence, RI, and established their own settlement, and as a result, enacted the very first Seperation of Church and State law.
Woo hoo! That's us, a big bunch of non-joiners. Puritans didn't care for Roger Williams. There was also a woman around that time that was much too outspoken for their liking so she came to RI as well. Don't remember her name right now. RI declaired independence before the rest of the collonies, was the last to join the US. And while in boston they were throwing tea off of merchant ships, in RI smugglers managed to get a british warship trapped on a sand bar. Then they burned it to the waterline. 
Course on the flip side RI is also the state with the highest number of vampire sitings.  
quote:
Gambatte kudasai!
Sumemasen, I know what kudasai means. What is Gambatte?
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 10:59:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
... There was also a woman around that time that was much too outspoken for their liking so she came to RI as well. Don't remember her name right now. ...
Anne Hutchinson
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Bozola
Skeptic Friend
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 11:18:31 [Permalink]
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Gambatte means "persevere", I think.
Bozola
- Practicing skeet for the Rapture. |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 11:25:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
In my teacher's words, "Can you imagine what would have happened had we gone in there?"
I sure can, and it makes me shudder just to think about it.
look up the "Bonus Army" and what happened to them in 1932 in Washington DC of all places.
quote:
Things like the Mayflower Contract (1620), the Fundamental Orders of Conneticut (considered the first written constitution in America, 1639), and how Roger Williams, who came over on the Mayflower with the Puritans, but wasn't Puritan himself, so they kicked him out. He and his followers went to Providence, RI, and established their own settlement, and as a result, enacted the very first Seperation of Church and State law.
Look up the Five (later Six) Nations of the Iroquois. Their confederation predates all of yours referenced by hundreds of years. Their ideas on what a society should be, made their way back to Europe and provided the inspiration to many of the 18th century social philosophers who in turn provided the inspiration to the framers of the Constitution. In the mid 18th century, the Iroquois suggested that the 13 English colonies try to form a confederation like the Five Nations, so that the two groups could deal with each other more easily - one on one. A plan was drawn up called the Albany Plan of Union. Benjamin Franklin was one of the major proponents of the plan which ultimately failed to be ratified by the Colonies. Franklin however, never forgot the idea. The Iroquois ideas about governance were referred to openly during the discussions of the Continental Congress and later.
Regards,
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 12:56:11 [Permalink]
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Gambatte kudasai means "Perservere", "Don't Give Up!", "Good Luck", "Keep fighting!" and similar sentiments.
quote:
look up the "Bonus Army" and what happened to them in 1932 in Washington DC of all places.
Will do, thanks!
[Hmm, interesting. I don't know if it really equates to what would have happened had my teacher actually followed orders though. He was basically ordered to kill over 200 people. They didn't have swords, bayonettes, and teargas. They had machine guns and grenades.]
quote:
Look up the Five (later Six) Nations of the Iroquois.
Will do, thanks again!
[Again, interesting stuff! This may be a topic for another thread, buy why do you suppose people would have such a hard time accepting that a major contributer to our ideals would be the Iroquois people? Are people really that stupid and stubborn?]
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Gambatte kudasai!
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 06/29/2001 13:05:00
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 06/29/2001 13:32:09 |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 16:29:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
They didn't have swords, bayonettes, and teargas. They had machine guns and grenades.
Tanks were used against the "Bonus Army".
quote:
This may be a topic for another thread, buy why do you suppose people would have such a hard time accepting that a major contributer to our ideals would be the Iroquois people? Are people really that stupid and stubborn?
Can you say racism? Actually, from the second half of the 19th century, a great deal of mythmaking has developed in American history. I will risk sounding melodramatic here. The Puritans of Plymouth colony are treated with such reverence (especially in grades 1-12), that they have become American patriarchs of biblical proportion.
You're right, this is probably a discussion for another thread.
Regards,
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 17:26:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tanks were used against the "Bonus Army".
From what I read, tanks were present, but not 'used', as in they didn't fire on people or run anyone over (unless they fired tear gas). I'm not saying it wasn't a bad deal, though.
quote:
Can you say racism? Actually, from the second half of the 19th century, a great deal of mythmaking has developed in American history. I will risk sounding melodramatic here. The Puritans of Plymouth colony are treated with such reverence (especially in grades 1-12), that they have become American patriarchs of biblical proportion.
Yeah, I know it's racism, that's what I meant by 'stupid and stubborn'. I was wondering why said racism is so prevalent.
And while I don't remember being taught that the Puritans were anything other than just the first group that happened to arrive from Britain, I've heard all the stories (and complaints) about how we aren't teaching our kids about how things really were.
quote:
You're right, this is probably a discussion for another thread.
Woohoo! I like being right some of the time!
As always:
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Gambatte kudasai!
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 06/29/2001 17:27:24 |
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