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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2001 : 20:40:55 [Permalink]
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"Nobody ever lost money underestimating the taste of the American Public."
(H. L. Mencken)
On the other hand, I do not believe that people commit atrocities because of attendance at certain kinds of raucous concerts. I think that people who have certain problems are drawn to these kinds of questionable events along with ordinary fun-loving people, and that the events themselves had little to do with the horrible things that those people did. I personally think that the Jesus freaks in the school also had a hand in bringing about this by making fun of those two boys and ostracizing them. When people treat other people atrociously, they must expect the consequences of their actions, particularly if the people they hurt have emotional problems.
ljbrs
If you knew better, you'd do better and would not find yourself in certain kinds of stupid messes with other people.
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Bozola
Skeptic Friend
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 20:50:29 [Permalink]
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Oh. Thanks, Trish.
Bozola
- Practicing skeet for the Rapture. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 01:13:46 [Permalink]
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If I had a kid that was say, 13 or 14, no way would I let him or her go to the concert. I also would not let my teenager have access to guns, cigarettes, or alcohol. Do I favor banning the music, firearm, tobacco, and alcohol industries? Heck no! Right now I'm listening to an Eminem CD, drinking a beer and having a cigarette. If I had kids it would probably be a different story. I'd send them to grandma's house before I started really misbehaving. The people who scream the loudest seem to be missing an important concept. It's called parental control and responsibility.
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I listen to Wagner, but I haven't had the urge to invade Poland in a long time. 
Dang! Another weekend worth of plans totally down the tubes. 
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 02:28:29 [Permalink]
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Randy, I believe we have similar opinions, but there are a few points I must address:
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Boron, do you think everyone has your self-limits, a few may call it inhibitions, on behaviors?
Sadly, I am sure there are some who don't.
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What about mosh pits?
I quite enjoy moshing. I will also stop the crowd to help somebody who gets hurt or needs to get out, and everybody I know will do the same.
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The Beatles changed a generation and the effects are still around today.
This is (in my opinion) a good thing.
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Today's use or finger pointing to music's influence can get over board sometimes, but it's not completely unjustified.
That may be the case, but we can lay equal blame on comic books, Saturday morning cartoons, and Shakespeare.
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People can and are influenced by all sorts of stimulus; music, as anything else, can be part of it. A lot of people/kids do like to emulate their role models. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say music can contribute to unacceptiable behavior for a number of the naive who participate just has it can also have a positive effect.
I agree completely. It only offends me when it is suggested that any of these stimuli are directly responsible for behaviour, rather than merely contributing.
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Ever look-read into group hero-worship/social-dynamics/tribalism/fanatism?
Psychology 101?
Yes, people can be brainwashed. The existence of cults is evidence of that. I am extremely doubtful, however, that song lyrics or any form of art with which I am familiar can be primarily responsible for brainwashing.
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Years ago, I recall seeing a few rock concerts. The audience up front would be in such a frenzy, the band could tell them to tear the stadium down and they'd do it. I've heard/read that comment for years. People caught up in the moment. Some go over the edge. It happens. Doesn't make it right, but it happens. When the bad behavior doesn't occur, then it's a great time. Influences.
This is a description of Mob Mentality. I have heard Hitler was also good at inspiring a crowd to do things they would not ordinarily do, this is (IMO) another example of cultism.
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...a large number of cliques feel the need for group idenity, which can include a total make-over, - of outer dress, shared ideas, behaviors, - some can be quite anti-social.
This is true; however, I believe it is ridiculous to blame their music.
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 18:15:55 [Permalink]
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How many users of this forum have, at one time or another, been into outrageous and unconventional music? In my own generation, there's been Alice Cooper, Frank Zappa, Arthur Brown, The Fugs, Iggy Pop, just to name a few. Before them, there was Slim Gaillard, Spike Jones, Screamin' Jay Hawkins; the list goes on and on. The pious moralists have clamored for censorship of them all. Does anyone seriously think Marilyn Manson is making young people today commit anti-social acts? Hey, maybe I can abdicate all responsibility for my own past indiscretions and blame George Jones and Kris Krisstofferson for making me a womanizing alcoholic.
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 22:51:10 [Permalink]
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A bit of an update on Ozzfest. Only two people were arrested for disorderly. Two out of the thousands that attended Ozzfest that weekend.
So, guess all the fundie hipe was for naught! Very few arrests at Ozzfest every year.
Forgotten fact. Manson cancelled his appearance at Ozzfest just following the Columbine shooting out of respect to the families of the slain.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 23:03:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
I listen to Wagner, but I haven't had the urge to invade Poland in a long time.
I, too, indulge on a regular basis in the lush and thrilling operas of Richard Wagner. I, too, have been quite capable of separating my love of his music from his bizarre nationalistic ideas and rampant anti-semitism, which I loathe. It has been rumored that his early opera "Rienzi" inspired the young Adolf Hitler with its majestic martial themes and story of "righteous" power. However, the notorious short attention span of Der Fuhrer must have come into play because he apparently left before the end of this long saga about politics and power. At the end, of course, "Rienzi" pays the ultimate price for his power lust, dying at the hands of those he betrayed.
There are a few who have advocated banning the music of Wagner because of his views and his possible influence on the formation of the Third Reich. There are some who have demanded the suppression of Impressionists or Modernists because they have "denigrated the true form of art". There are those who have wished for the elimination of classic books (e.g., "Huck Finn") because they don't conform to modern PC standards. There are groups who work to destroy novels and stories with any sex, witchcraft, drugs, or violence. Of course, there are those who advocate banning science textbooks because they deny the primacy of god. And there are those who desire to ban the Bible because they are offended by its widespread influence.
Censorship and the advocacy of censorship are the desperate acts of spineless and lifeless cowards.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 06/25/2001 23:04:54
Edited by - rubysue on 06/25/2001 23:06:08 |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 00:26:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
There are a few who have advocated banning the music of Wagner because of his views and his possible influence on the formation of the Third Reich. There are some who have demanded the suppression of Impressionists or Modernists because they have "denigrated the true form of art". There are those who have wished for the elimination of classic books (e.g., "Huck Finn") because they don't conform to modern PC standards. There are groups who work to destroy novels and stories with any sex, witchcraft, drugs, or violence. Of course, there are those who advocate banning science textbooks because they deny the primacy of god. And there are those who desire to ban the Bible because they are offended by its widespread influence.
rubysue
Which leaves us with what?
I've found kind of a neat way to deal with this problem. I don't like bodice ripper novels, nor do I care for scary slasher movies. I like very little rap music, and gangsta rap not at all. There's very little on TV that doesn't try my patience. Guess what? I avoid what will offend/bore me. I don't rip others apart for liking what I loathe. Works pretty well, and I sleep well.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 07:20:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
(Lisa) ...I've found kind of a neat way to deal with this problem. ... Guess what? I avoid what will offend/bore me. I don't rip others apart for liking what I loathe. Works pretty well, and I sleep well.
Agreed.
I trust my ability to think and make choices for myself, and I trust others to make the same choices for themselves. I can shake my head (and do) if I don't understand their choices...just as I reserve the right to change my mind at some future time.
Although there are restrictions (one small example): as part of my life's goal of helping young people take their places as adults (translation: I'm a school teacher), I find myself enforcing rules to help mold their habits...shape their behaviors so that they *can* grow into responsible adulthood.
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 07:54:16 [Permalink]
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Lisa, Zandermann -
From your responses I'm not sure you got my point - What I'm trying to say is that I don't want someone else deciding my choices for me, which is why I described all of those things that have been or could be censored. It's true that I can easily make my own choices about what I like and don't like (as you both have stated) and I can ignore what someone else likes. I know I like classical music and opera and I know there are people out there that absolutely loathe those forms of music. It's up to me to make a decision on what types of music, books, movies, plays, television shows, etc., that I want to enjoy. My concern is about censorship and the fact that there are others who plainly wish to dictate these choices for me and other adults, not just children. Aslo go read my response under the "bumper sticker" thread about others making decisions on who should be able to vote by implementing "tests" that screen out those with different beliefs or opinions. These fundamental rights are not subject to the whims of others based on their beliefs, values or level of disgust.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 08:07:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Lisa, Zandermann -
From your responses I'm not sure you got my point - What I'm trying to say is that I don't want someone else deciding my choices for me ...
can't speak for Lisa, of course (isn't that what this thread is about?)...but I *do* get your point, rubysue, and I agree with it, and I didn't mean to imply that we were in disagreement at all.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 10:43:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
can't speak for Lisa, of course (isn't that what this thread is about?)...but I *do* get your point, rubysue, and I agree with it, and I didn't mean to imply that we were in disagreement at all.
No, I think you've summed it up pretty well. Censorship is insidious and dangerous. Did anyone see Slater's comment in another topic about his adventure at the public library? He went to the library with a suggested reading list from, I think it was CSICOP. The books were all checked out. The librarian said the books had been checked out an never returned. *Someone* decided these books weren't fit for the general public. Instead of just deciding not to read these books, or telling their kids not to read these books, they made this decision for the entire public. (Sarcasm alert) Wasn't that nice of them. If I went to that library, I wouldn't have to do any thinking for myself, because these good folk have done it for me.
No thank you. I'll make these decisions for myself, if you please. And to the pro-censorship folks: while you're leaving books alone, also keep your mitts off my music and movies too.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 22:26:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
And to the pro-censorship folks: while you're leaving books alone, also keep your mitts off my music and movies too.
To all pro-censorship-type people out there:
If you don't have to touch/hear/smell/see/taste it, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT!!! IIRC, no one was forcing you to do this stuff. So, IOW, LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!
"When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not." -Master Yoda |
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