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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 06/22/2001 : 10:42:57
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Two days ago I attended a "Touched By Angels" session at the Louisville, Kentucky main public library. A 'channeler' communed with the spirits for the benefit of her audience.
I took careful notes and am preparing a letter to the Director of Libraries for Louisville in an effort to stop them providing legitimacy to such claptrap. (I just found out that she appears there once a month).
Any ideas on who else to contact? This 'channeler' charges for private sessions and for new age audio cassetts and other stuff on her website
http://dale.angelspeak.net br /
But the real help is for this:
I contacted Ms. Clardy (the channeler) to request an interview prior to my contacting anyone. She declined, but did engage in a short e-mail exchange. She invited me to attend another session, this time as an announced skeptic, and "See how they respond to you."
I have no problem with the actual debating/debunking aspect; I'm well-versed on that. I don't mind speaking in front of people; I've done it lots.
But confronting a group of hostile illogicals will be new to me. What kinds of pitfalls do I need to watch out for? How do I handle not being allowed to complete a statement? Or do I not do this at all, in which case I risk losing credibility in my approach to the Director of Libraries?
Any and all thoughts appreciated.
My kids still love me.
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 11:13:41 [Permalink]
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Going up in front of a hostle crowd can be tough. I've never had to do it, but have gotten my share of flames from pointing out the facts on certain message boards. I've been accused of beeing a tool of satan, that I am incapable of love, etc.. Those types of people are impossible to reach so don't even worry about trying.
To reach the ones that might actualy be open minded it has a lot to do with presentation. A lot of the time they seem to think skeptics say people are stupid or gullable for falling for the tricks of 'psychics' or 'mediums'. You have to avoid that, maybe by showing how anyone can be tricked. The Great Carlos is a good example of how easily it can be done. Stateing that channelers are phonies will not help your case. People might take you as arogant and think you know it all. State it as your opinion they are not real, and evidence.
Maybe a good way is to just sit back throughout the act and keep score. What was said and counting the hits and misses. Then ask the people how well she did, and compare it to what was actualy said.
The best way would to actualy have a mentalist giveing readings who then reveals they were just tricking them. But that might be hard with them comming along with a known skeptic.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 12:57:37 [Permalink]
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I kept score two days ago, though I still need to compile it into a usable format; actually, I've begun compiling it but am having a bit of difficulty on what to count as hits and what not to count so that I remain consistent. I am loathe to count generalities as hits, but I think the audience would disagree. I also kept track of what were actual statements as opposed to questions (questions outnumber statements by far), not to mention her 'outs'.
I wasn't really set on debunking this at all but one 'reading' convinced me I need to. I believe this particular reading was worse than a waste of time--it was potentially harmful and dangerous to the subject:
First, as with most of the rest of the subjects, she launched into some platitudes and generalities. One exact quotation she used with this subject was “You
have ideas that cause stress for you.” Who doesn't?
The rest is not exactly verbatim, but is as close as my notes will allow:
Clardy: Do you have any questions?
Subject: Are you getting anything from my friendGayle?
Clardy: Is she in spirit? (Note that she did not know the answer until she was told; she did this frequently)
Subject: Yes.
Clardy: She's here. She says to tell you she's having fun. You shouldn't worry. Is she plainspoken?
Subject: Yes
Clardy: Well, she's certainly being that now. She's shaking a finger and telling you not to worry so much.
Subject: I asked you about my Dad last time. Now I need to know…I have to ask if it was suicide or an accident?
Clardy: Neither. It was neither. He's at peace.
Subject: I knew it. So it was….was it? I mean…
Clardy: He says he doesn't want you upset. It was meant to happen as it happened. You should let it go.
Subject: So it was murder?
Clardy: Murder? Was it….No. It wasn't murder.
Subject: But it wasn't suicide or an accident? Then what was it?
Clardy: It was, well, it was, he's saying not to worry, you shouldn't worry.... It wasn't murder.
Subject: Then who put the bullet in him?
Clardy: He does not want you to know. Let go of it. This is an issue between him and that person.
Subject: I knew it.
Clardy: It's for him…I mean it's between him
and…there's a third party and you should not concern yourself…
Subject: I knew it.
Clardy: You should let it go. Stay away from this other. There's an…it's for him and this other…
Subject: How am I supposed to do that?
Clardy: Accept it. (She moves to the next subject)
The rest bothered me, but this reading angered me.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 13:03:23 [Permalink]
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Several of my friends are "New Age" and "New Thought" types. They don't want to hear what you have to say. To them, you're a negative influence.
My impression is that it would be better for the library to offer equal time to someone who wants to debunk such things. Not to say that you won't attract some hostile people, and not to say that you won't be preaching to the choir either, but I think the possibility for more open-mindedness is there.
quote:
Going up in front of a hostle crowd can be tough. I've never had to do it, but have gotten my share of flames from pointing out the facts on certain message boards. I've been accused of beeing a tool of satan, that I am incapable of love, etc.. Those types of people are impossible to reach so don't even worry about trying.
To reach the ones that might actualy be open minded it has a lot to do with presentation. A lot of the time they seem to think skeptics say people are stupid or gullable for falling for the tricks of 'psychics' or 'mediums'. You have to avoid that, maybe by showing how anyone can be tricked. The Great Carlos is a good example of how easily it can be done. Stateing that channelers are phonies will not help your case. People might take you as arogant and think you know it all. State it as your opinion they are not real, and evidence.
Maybe a good way is to just sit back throughout the act and keep score. What was said and counting the hits and misses. Then ask the people how well she did, and compare it to what was actualy said.
The best way would to actualy have a mentalist giveing readings who then reveals they were just tricking them. But that might be hard with them comming along with a known skeptic.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 13:43:38 [Permalink]
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Garrette, it sounds like she's trying to manoever you into a rather untenable postition. If I read your post correctly, all you really wanted to do is bring a rather questionable presentation to the library's attention. Now she wants to haul you up in front of what will be a hostile audience. I strongly suspect she will have some shills in the audience to attest to her authenticity. You may have boatloads of facts, but be prepared to get buried in an avalnche of testimonials.
Is there a Skeptic organisation near you? They'd be a big help if you decided to do this. Also, go to http://www.randi.org/
Almost anything can count as a "hit" with these people. Let's take me for an example. I'm a 42 year old married female. What could a "psychic" say, and be on the safe side.
"You have back or joint pain" No shit, I said I was 42.
"You've had periods of depression" Yes, I read the newspaper.
"You've had disagreements with your spouse or significant other" I've been married twice and have smirk lines instead of laugh lines.
"You've been distressed over the loss of a relative" Didn't I say I was 42? The number alive and kicking in the generation preceeding me is getting smaller every year.
"You've worried about money" Hey, I'm materialistic American! So sue me.
IOW, these "hits" are so generalized that they can apply to 99% of the people in my sex/age group. But to the gullible, they'd be amazing.
Good Luck,
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 14:09:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Several of my friends are "New Age" and "New Thought" types. They don't want to hear what you have to say. To them, you're a negative influence.
My impression is that it would be better for the library to offer equal time to someone who wants to debunk such things. Not to say that you won't attract some hostile people, and not to say that you won't be preaching to the choir either, but I think the possibility for more open-mindedness is there.
I think you're right in that this is what I will face.
quote:
Is there a Skeptic organisation near you? They'd be a big help if you decided to do this. Also, go to http://www.randi.org/
Almost anything can count as a "hit" with these people. Let's take me for an example. I'm a 42 year old married female. What could a "psychic" say, and be on the safe side.
"You have back or joint pain" No shit, I said I was 42.
"You've had periods of depression" Yes, I read the newspaper.
"You've had disagreements with your spouse or significant other" I've been married twice and have smirk lines instead of laugh lines.
"You've been distressed over the loss of a relative" Didn't I say I was 42? The number alive and kicking in the generation preceeding me is getting smaller every year.
"You've worried about money" Hey, I'm materialistic American! So sue me.
IOW, these "hits" are so generalized that they can apply to 99% of the people in my sex/age group. But to the gullible, they'd be amazing.
Easy question first: What's IOW?
I understand very well about the nature of their statements and hits (I'm a bit of an amateur magician and can do this stuff myself--better than Clardy did, in fact). The problem is as you say, those who want to believe it anyway, will.
Actually, I've sent James Randi an e-mail on this and he has kindly responded twice with some advice, though he is too busy to go into great detail.
I've looked for skeptic organizations around here and can find none; if I had more time, energy, inclination, free beer, and the promise of illicit pleasures, I might start one myself, but alas I am, at the end of the day, a self-serving procrastinator, so I suppose we're doomed to remain unenlightened in the Ohio River Valley.
My kids still love me. |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2001 : 22:06:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Easy question first: What's IOW?
Easy answer: It means "In other words."
Web site w/more acronyms and emoticons the you can shake a stick at: http://www.muller-godschalk.com/acronyms.html
quote:
...so I suppose we're doomed to remain unenlightened in the Ohio River Valley.
Man, if I was you, I'd move ASAP to somewhere more skeptic friendly, like say Miami or L.A. At least in L.A., they have so many nuts that you'd be lost in the crowd, so-to-speak. 
"When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not." -Master Yoda |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2001 : 04:05:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Man, if I was you, I'd move ASAP to somewhere more skeptic friendly, like say Miami or L.A. At least in L.A., they have so many nuts that you'd be lost in the crowd, so-to-speak.
I was born and have lived in Los Angeles all my life. You are right about the people here, but one can still stand out if he wants to.   Come on out here, I'll show you around. And remember earthquakes are safer then tornados.
Here's something else that might help:
Copyright 2001 Michael Shermer, Skeptics Society, Skeptic magazine, e-Skeptic
magazine (www.skeptic.com and skepticmag@aol.com). Permission to print,
distribute, and post with proper citation and acknowledgment. We encourage
you to broadcast e-Skeptic to new potential subscribers. Newcomers can
subscribe to e-Skeptic for free by sending an e-mail to:
join-skeptics@lyris.net
From: skeptic-admin@lyris.net (E-Skeptic)
Reply-to: SkepticMag@aol.com (E-Skeptic)
To: skeptics@lyris.net (Skeptics Society)
''You are poised in the moment between thought and result. Put your dollar in the machine or get out of the casino.'' |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2001 : 11:37:07 [Permalink]
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Snake,
Do you still have the e-skeptic that came out within the last few days? I opened my e-mail, and naturally, there was a bunch of spam and junk. I went into a deleting frenzy, and oops, guess what? My brain wasn't fast enough to stop that mouse click. Dang.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2001 : 12:44:02 [Permalink]
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Garrette,
What you have described is a typical cold reading. It's a game of 20 questions. You get the person being read to supply needed information by asking lot's of questions. Even a little bit if information can be used by the psychic to make logical deductions about the person being read. Body language can be useful to a reader too.
These people are very good at what they do. I'm not sure if I would put myself into a position to debate that person. One hot reading (a plant) could get you blown away.
What I would do is ask for a chance to talk about her readings. But I would wait a month to do it. Next time she does a reading I would take a tape recorder. I am assuming that she will not recognize you. Record her readings and count the hits and misses. Count the generalizations and the shift of subject when a reading isn't going well. Ask to be read if you get a chance, ask a question and then keep quite. Do not allow her to lead you. Just stare back. (I love doing that.)
The next month, ask her if you can talk a bit after her demonstration. If she says no than ask for your own time to debunk her. Explain to the audience what a cold reading is and than go over the hits and misses from the previous months reading. If your up to it, demonstrate a cold reading on an audience member.
Don't allow her to control the situation. These people can be very fast. If she is any good at all she will roll over you. It's important to get a block of uninterrupted time to counter her presentation. If she refuses to let you speak, uninterrupted, than you can point that out at your own talk on cold readings.
I wouldn't say that I'm here to debunk the psychic. Better to stay positive. Remember that you can't prove or disprove this kind of claim. Talk about how the same results can be achieved without using any psychic powers at all. Talk about occams razor and critical thinking. It's likely that the audience has probably never considered other explanations. It has been my experience that given some good information about how this "act" might work, the audience will gravitate to the less "other worldly" explanation. Let the audience decide.
I'd love to go with you. Darn!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2001 : 13:50:53 [Permalink]
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This belongs in another thread, but seeing Randi did make a big difference with me. I had always been interested in "the occult" and while I think I kept an open mind, I figured there "had to be" something behind most of it. I think I'll always remember Randi's "psychic surgery" performance. That got me to thinking and I haven't stopped since.
So, I guess, even if doing something seems futile, maybe there'll be one person who'll remember something you said, and that might save that person some grief somewhere down the road.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2001 : 14:42:54 [Permalink]
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I also meant to add that I think the demonstration hit home more to me than talk. Maybe others would respond differently.
quote:
seeing Randi did make a big difference with me.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 02:38:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake,
Do you still have the e-skeptic that came out within the last few days
Subj: E-SKEPTIC: OREGON SKEPTICS EVENT, PARANORMAL POLL DATA
Date: 6/22/01 9:22:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: skeptic-admin@lyris.net (E-Skeptic)
Reply-to: SkepticMag@aol.com (E-Skeptic)
To: skeptics@lyris.net (Skeptics Society)
E-SKEPTIC FOR JUNE 22, 2001
Copyright 2001 Michael Shermer, Skeptics Society, Skeptic magazine, e-Skeptic
magazine (www.skeptic.com and skepticmag@aol.com). Permission to print,
distribute, and post with proper citation and acknowledgment. We encourage
you to broadcast e-Skeptic to new potential subscribers. Newcomers can
subscribe to e-Skeptic for free by sending an e-mail to:
join-skeptics@lyris.net
---------------------------------
HAPPY SUMMER SOLSTICE FELLOW SKEPTICS! The longest day of the year was
yesterday so it's all down hill from here. Unless you live down under, in
which case happy winter solstice to you and it's all up hill from here for
you.
BIG OREGON SKEPTICS EVENT TOMORROW (SATURDAY JUNE 23)
I'll be speaking tomorrow (Saturday, June 23) at the Oregon Secular Alliance
annual conference being held at the Greenwood Inn at 10700 SW Allen Blvd. in
Portland, Oregon, as part of their "Forum on Rational Living." Also speaking
is James Sager from the Oregon Education Association. My talk is at 1:00pm,
plus I'll be doing a workshop after as well, and a book signing some time in
the afternoon. I'll be giving a new lecture based on my new book, The
Borderlands of Science (order at www.skeptic.com), but since the theme of
this year's conference is education, "Rational Means for Improving
Education," I will also be discussing the Baloney Detection Kit (order at
www.skeptic.com) and what educators can do about the rising tide of belief in
the paranormal (see recent poll data below). I am told by the organizers that
you can sign up the the entire day that goes from 9-5, or you can sign up for
a single lecture.
For further information contact:
Gerald Gage, 503/274-8278, ggage@hevanet.com
Robert Sanford, 503/614-6620, rsanford@teleport.com
------------------------------
WHY DO CREATIONISM DEBATES?
In my posting about the Duane Gish debate I did a couple of weeks ago I
wrote: "Why do such debates? My hope is that for the kids, teenagers, and
young folks in the audience (and that was about half the people) I was able
to plant a meme of tolerance for other belief systems, and a basic
understanding of how science really works (contrary to how Gish says it
works)." I received this nice e-mail letter in response:
I am one of those kids and the meme did take. Not at this debate of course,
but at one in 1977 or so.
I was a middlegrade student at a parochial school in Longmont, Colorado when
our science teacher took us to Colorado State University to see Gish (I'm
fairly certain; we lined up afterward and bought the "fossils say no" book)
debate a CSU professor, whose name I've long since forgotten; the debate,
however, still lingers in my memory.
We applauded Gish and celebrated his "victory", but I came away with a
nagging doubt as to the true winner. Our local public school brought an
illusionist around once a year during their summer activity program, and
Gish left me with the same feeling as that illusionist: it sounded and
looked good, but something wasn't quite right.
I didn't turn out to be a famous scientist of course, so you can't use this
as an apocryphal story :), but that CSU prof did eventually lead me to gain
a firm grasp of what science is about, which allows me to rebut when the
opportunity arises, which it does with depressing regularity.
So, go on debating every chance you get, as long as you desire to, for one
of these days a member of the audience just might turn out to be a famous
scientist in the making, and you'll have a good story to tell.
Mark Libby
---------------------------------
PARANORMAL GALLUP POLL DATA
June 8, 2001
Americans' Belief in Psychic and Paranormal Phenomena Is up Over Last Decade
Belief in psychic healing and extrasensory perception top the list
by Frank Newport and Maura Strausberg
GALLUP NEWS SERVICE
To read the full release, go to
<http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr010608.asp>
PRINCETON, NJ -- What exactly do Americans believe in when it comes to the
paranormal, the occult, and "out-of-this-world" experiences? The Gallup
Poll recently updated its audit of Americans' beliefs in a variety of these
types of phenomena. The results suggest a significant increase in belief in a
number of these experiences over the past decade, including in particular
such Halloween-related issues as haunted houses, ghosts and witches. Only
one of the experiences tested has seen a drop in belief since 1990: devil
possession. Overall, half or more of Americans believe in two of the
issues: psychic or spiritual healing, and extrasensory perception (ESP), and a
third or more believe in such things as haunted houses, possession by the
devil, ghosts, telepathy, extraterrestrial beings having visited earth, and
clairvoyance.
Basic Beliefs
The list of 13 experiences tested in the poll is eclectic, ranging from
Halloween- and occult-oriented phenomena such as ghosts and witches, to
mental experiences such as ESP, clairvoyance, and psychic or spiritual
healing.
Americans' overall beliefs in the experiences tested range from a slight
majority who believe in the power of the human mind to heal the body, to
a low of 15% who believe in the New Age concept of channeling or
allowing a "spirit-being" to assume control of a body during a trance.
Here is the overall pattern of results:
For each of the following items I am going to read you, please tell me
whether it is something you believe in, something you're not sure about,
or something you don't believe in. How about -- [RANDOM ORDER]?
Psychic or spiritual healing or the power of the human mind to heal the body:
54% Believe
19% Not sure
26% Don't believe
ESP or extrasensory perception
50% Believe
20% Not sure
27% Don't believe
That houses can be haunted
42% Believe
16% Not sure
41% Don't believe
That people on this earth are sometimes possessed by the devil
41% Believe
16% Not sure
41% Don't believe
Ghosts or that spirits of dead people can come back in certain places and
situations
38% Believe
17% Not sure
44% Don't believe
Telepathy, or communication between minds without using the traditional five
senses
36% Believe
26% Not sure
35% Don't believe
That extraterrestrial beings have visited earth at some time in the past
33% Believe
27% Not sure
38% Don't believe
Clairvoyance, or the power of the mind to know the past and predict the future
32% Believe
23% Not sure
45% Don't believe
That people can hear from or communicate mentally with someone who has died
28% Believe
26% Not sure
46% Don't believe
Astrology, or that the position of the stars and planets can affect people's
lives
28% Believe
18% Not sure
52% Don't believe
Witches
26% Believe
15% Not sure
59% Don't believe
Reincarnation, that is, the rebirth of the soul in a new body after death
25% Believe
20% Not sure
54% Don't believe
Channeling, or allowing a "spirit-being" to temporarily assume control of a
human body during a trance
15% Believe
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 03:35:51 [Permalink]
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We're losing ground in the US.
Wonder how well we are doing in other places.
Abondon Drugs, say no to Religion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 19:49:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
We're losing ground in the US.
Wonder how well we are doing in other places.
Don't know about any offical polls but people I know on line from various countries in Europe say religion is not as importants as Americans make it to be. One friend in Belgium says it's almost all atheistic there. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 20:29:35 [Permalink]
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Those statistics are depressing. I want to blame television, but I wonder how often subjects like ghosts and telepathy are discussed in schools. Then there's the whole issue of teaching critical thinking. It never ceases to amaze me what some folks consider solid evidence.
quote:
One friend in Belgium says it's almost all atheistic there
I've wondered a long time why people live there. That answers that. But I still have to ask myself if it's really the waffles they are after.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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