|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2002 : 02:25:32
|
Yeah, well I'm going to this dinner thing with my mother on pain control through natural methods. Anything I should be aware of or on the look out for with these people? My mom has MS and is in a great deal of pain most of the time. I'm just concerned that these people might try selling her something - which is kinda why I invited myself along.
---
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
|
|
|
Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2002 : 02:53:35 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Yeah, well I'm going to this dinner thing with my mother on pain control through natural methods. Anything I should be aware of or on the look out for with these people? My mom has MS and is in a great deal of pain most of the time. I'm just concerned that these people might try selling her something - which is kinda why I invited myself along.
I would be careful, while there are actually some herbal products that might be helpful in your case, there are a lot that are not.
Dinner Thing does sound somewhat suspicious. If they try to not only sell you their stuff, but also want you to become a reseller yourself and claim that it will practically pay for itself, run away. No matter how good or bad their product is never get involved in such pyramide games. If the stuff is actually good, you can get it elswhere chaper.
Also be wary of the usual suspects like anectdoteal evidence, conspiracy theories and religious ideas. The presence of those things does not necessarally indicate that the product is worthless, just that the guy making the sales pitch is. Try to find information about the products on the net.
edited to add that Dr. Barrett has some general stuff about herbs on his www.quackwatch.com site. It might be a good starting point to find out more.
Edited by - Lars_H on 07/07/2002 02:56:11 |
 |
|
|
Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2002 : 03:27:12 [Permalink]
|
Well you have just hit my button and my experience on this subject both as an MD with about 35 MS patients and the mother of a 27 year old son and 82 year old mother-in-law both with MS it made it necessary that I respond. NO NATURAL PRODUCTS AS SOLD BY THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING FOR MONEY ARE GOING TO HELP YOUR MOTHER WITH THE PAIN CAUSED BY MS!!!!!!
First they are not regulated by the FDA and have no scientific evidence that they do what they say they do no matter what these people will tell you. You cannot tell if they will interact with any other prescription drugs your Mom is on and you have no resource if she is not helped or worse harmed by these so called all natural products. They will also tell you that we doctors are against them because we and the drug companies loose money when people use their products. These people are in it for the money just like the pharmaceutical companies are. They are not selling these products out of the goodness of their hearts and they do not know your mother or her history the way her doctor does. The products are usually very expensive and not covered by insurance.
If your mom is in pain that is not being adequetly treated by her primary care physician she should seek out a Pain Specialist. Pain.com is a good place to find a qualified pain specialist in her area.
If she is afraid of drugs because they are "addictive" reassure her that pain medication taken for pain as prescibed is not addictive even if she is on Vicodin or Morphine. Both morphine and hydrocodone and other opoid medications, Methadone, Duragesic and OxyContin are the safest medications on the market unless they are abused by someone looking for a high and not using it for pain relief. Despite the bad press OxyContin is a safe, effective and low in side effects (some tiredness at first that wears off as she takes it and constipation are the worse problems). Other medications she should consider are Baclofen for spasm often found in MS patients, Amytriptiline at bedtime helps, Neurontin, Tegratol and low doses of anti-depressants.
Remember that I do not know your mother and have never examined her so any advice I give is just general information.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2002 : 03:36:41 [Permalink]
|
I'm not sure what the medication is, but her doctor wants her to start on one of the (three) injectable medications for MS. She's trying to wait until she's covered by Medicare because the one medication is covered by Medicare, but she'll need to go to the doctor for the injections.
My biggest fear is that right now she's in the middle of an attack brought on by a lot of stress over the last few months and her walking has diminished to the point where she's barely able to get to the car to go to work in the am and the heat saps her by the end of the day.
I just want to be that 'voice of reason' that will make her question the validity of what these people are selling. I can't change her mind if she's made it up to go, I think I can do some damage control with good hard questions at the dinner.
---
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2002 : 04:04:32 [Permalink]
|
Yeah. Read a lot at quackwatch and join the mailing list and ask questions. Email Dr. Barrett himself, he's usually helpful, although doesn't have a lot of time.
Remember, there are a lot of poisons that are 'natural.' Is it tested? Herbs may have some good medicine in them, but they are plants and one doesn't know the amount of medicine in them. This stuff isn't well-regulated, so even though the manufacturer may put some information on the bottle, that doesn't make it right.
Whatever it is, it's probably expensive and you're better off doing what the doctor says. If she doesn't like what the doctor says she can do some reading on the subject and maybe find a more knowledgeable doctor. Many people think that because science isn't perfect, the answer is to turn away from science. The answer is not to turn away from science but to make science better.
If it's a multi-level marketing scheme, have a look at their mlm website.
http://www.mlmwatch.org/
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 07/07/2002 04:06:29 |
|
|
|
Sven62
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2002 : 08:41:58 [Permalink]
|
Pain is 100% subjective and there is no way to test a product that claims to actively effect its reduction other than asking people if they feel better after taking it. Consequently, companies can get away with selling almost ANYTHING for pain.
When it comes to pain, the power of suggestion and the placebo effect can make it appear that these herbal, and other alternative remedies, are actually DOING something when they aren't. And yet the patients often claim a reduction in pain.
Pain is a difficult and confusing thing to deal with scientifically. Damned near impossible, it seems to me, because all the evidence is anecdotal.
The bottom line for me is... if someone reports feeling better after taking this or that, what the hell. I would just make sure a licensed medical doctor oversees any alternative remedies consumed. There are some pretty powerful herbs out there and Doc Shari is right - all skirt FDA scrutiny.
Sven
When Ah say whoa... Ah meeeeean... WHOA!!
- Yosemite Sam as he clobbers the camel that refuses to stop galloping blindly ahead.
Edited by - sven62 on 07/07/2002 09:44:59 |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2002 : 19:37:29 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Yeah, well I'm going to this dinner thing with my mother on pain control through natural methods. Anything I should be aware of or on the look out for with these people?
I think you know what to do.
Bottom line, if it sounds too good to be true.........
Also, you know those people can sound convincing and throw out words that sound medical or scientific. I'd say if you ask them a question and they give you back mombo jumbo or ridicule you because you 'don't understand', then they are not on the up and up. Did you also hear the saying, if you don't know (or can't pronounce) what the ingrediants are on the box of food you are eating, you shouldn't eat it either. Well if they can't explain how their product works, don't buy it.
I was in a pain study for hypnosis. I do believe that works. But then you don't really have to buy anything, you can-self hypnotize youself. Although they did give me a type to listen to.
Good luck.
Let us know if they try to sell you magnets to sleep on. LOL.
* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
-----------------
Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
|
|
|
|
Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 03:35:51 [Permalink]
|
The injections her doctor wants her to take is most likely Copaxon (R) and has shown promising results in relapsing MS patients but cost about $1000 a month. You can contact the manufacturer and ask for compassionate care and see if she can get the drug at a lower cost or on occasion free. I have several patients that gets their medications this way. Most companies do this so find out what the doctor wants her to take and the maker and e-mail them. It is worth a try. It takes work but can be done. In the mean time do get her to pain specialist. As doctors we are not always up on the latest or best treatments for everything and when i have patients that require more then a few pain pills to get over an illness or injury I refer them to someone who is up on the best drugs and procedures for their type of pain. Not all pain responds to the same pain medications. Some MS patients due well with accupuncture. Just make sure you find an experianced and liscenced practitioner. Despite my bias against them in general (long story) chiroprators are often well trained in this just don't let them convince your mom they can cure her MS by corresting her subluxations and taking herbal cures.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
|
|
|
Sven62
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 11:30:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Some MS patients due well with accupuncture. Just make sure you find an experianced and liscenced practitioner.
Accupuncture, by all accounts I've seen, would come under the "power of suggestion and placebo effect" heading. It's based on "chi" flow ... whatever the hell that is. Certainly not something ever demonstrated scientifically. At the same time some people do report feeling better after treatment and it hasn't shown any negative affects, other than the possible deterioration that might occur in the time between going to them and going to a REAL doctor.
I have to laugh whenever I hear the words "licensed accupuncturist". Sounds just like "licensed astrologer" to me.
Ciao!
Sven
When Ah say whoa... Ah meeeeean... WHOA!!
- Yosemite Sam as he clobbers the camel that refuses to stop galloping blindly ahead. |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 13:21:07 [Permalink]
|
quote:
It's based on "chi" flow ... whatever the hell that is.
The CHI is the energy of the life force. Ha in Hawaiian, soul in English. It flows through the bodies meridians and connects the chakras . Of course you don't actually have any chi, or meridians, or any chakras in your body. It's completely fake, based on old Chiness superstition. All you are left with are a bunch of little holes in you skin and a bigger hole in your wallet.
It's funny-sort of a reverse racism- that the same people who say "This is wonderful they have used it in China for 2000 years" would never dream of using western medicine from the middle ages. Hell, they wouldn't go to a dentist who used tools from the 1950's.
-------
My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
|
|
|
James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 17:17:29 [Permalink]
|
quote:
All you are left with are a bunch of little holes in you skin and a bigger hole in your wallet.
Not me. Insurance is paying for my acupuncture.
Yeah, I'm seeing an acupuncturist. Reffered there by my parents because I am having problems with my knee. Have been for the past couple of years. The good thing about it is that I can get a nice, hour long nap in and I have some time to sort out my thoughts and just relax.
I'll tell you what: If it'll make everyone happy, I will keep going for a year. After that, if there hasn't been any progress, then we say it is superstitious mumbo-jumbo. If there is any progress, any at all, then we say that it's a possible cure/whatever.
Does that sound good to everyone?
________________________
Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7 of your life.
Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...
*whine* |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 17:23:55 [Permalink]
|
Regardless of whether or not you feel better, it's superstitious mumbo-jumbo.
quote:
I'll tell you what: If it'll make everyone happy, I will keep going for a year. After that, if there hasn't been any progress, then we say it is superstitious mumbo-jumbo. If there is any progress, any at all, then we say that it's a possible cure/whatever.
Does that sound good to everyone?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
|
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 17:41:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I'll tell you what: If it'll make everyone happy, I will keep going for a year. After that, if there hasn't been any progress, then we say it is superstitious mumbo-jumbo. If there is any progress, any at all, then we say that it's a possible cure/whatever.
Does that sound good to everyone?
It's not as simple as "it either works or it's superstitious mumbo-jumbo". You can believe it works without believing in the metaphysical nonsense of chi or energy flows or whatever.
There are some theories about the needles being a counter-irritant, and/or stimulating bodily production of pain-relieving chemicals and endorphins, and theories that the needles directly affect the nervous system. However, these being empirical things, they have been tested, and placebo is still the most likely explanation.
(shamelessly paraphrased from the Skeptic Dictionary's entry on acupuncture)
------------
You can tell she's hydrolic...
Her silver scream is supersonic
You can see the mercury smear in her eye... |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 18:03:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
There are some theories about the needles being a counter-irritant, and/or stimulating bodily production of pain-relieving chemicals ...
"Now hold still while I stick this needle into you...it won't hurt a bit." I've heard that one before.
-------
My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 21:48:39 [Permalink]
|
Well, just back from dinner and well it wasn't herbal medicines - which I thought from mom's explanation. It was, Magnetic Therapy Matresses. The most hillarious part was when they claimed that the mattresses help with shingles. Anyway, mom's check book won - no new matresses showing up at the house.
---
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
|
|
|
Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2002 : 22:04:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
...Magnetic Therapy Matresses
Oy veh!
Good for Mom, though, in resisting that nonsense. |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
