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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 07/16/2002 : 16:32:59
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quote:
To: Mark Spence (or whoever job it is now to read e-mails over there)
From: name deleted because I don't trust you people! 
Re: questions
Sorry for the really long wait for the reply, but I've other stuff that was pressing my mind, besides, I'm not sure you guys wanted a reply from me or not. Anyway, I have a problem (well some, but I'll just mention this one) with your Mr. Spence's reply:
This is the part of Mark's letter I responded to
<If someone goes to hell it's because they have rejected God's only means to get to heaven, Jesus. There is not another way to be forgiven of one's sins. The judgment is... hell forever. "But that doesn't fit the crime" one would say. "According to who? I ask. God is holy and pure and right in all
that He does. He makes the rules. One can not work off their sins.>
Now back to my reply to him
Just one problem; God, in the OT is a being who orders the death of babies and pregnant women. If that isn't a sin, then what is, I ask? (you can probably say that the people were "irredeemable" -->the Amalakites, and the babies were killed to keep them from being brought up into sin and therefore hell. The problem is, if Jesus is the only way to heaven, those babies never had a chance. And if you say that God is just, then is it just to kill off babies? If it is, then abortionists aren't sinners, and in fact may even be heroes for saving the souls of the babies from hell (assuming they can go to heaven whithout accepting christ) if it is NOT just to kill off babies then God is himself not just. I should point out that many xtians who believe in this "rapture" stuff assume that God will take all of the babies to heaven to save them from the tribulation. If so, then why didn't he do the same for the Amalakites babies, instead of having them run through with swords?
New point, from Mark 16:15-18, "The Great Commission":
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them
that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall
speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if
they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay
hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Note that this verse says that "these signs shall follow them that believe", NOT these signs MAY follow them that believe. Since you people are supposed to be believers, then may I ask if any of you have ever drunk poison without getting hurt? If not, why not? While it isn't an actual command, the Bible that you believe to be god's own word clearly states that you've nothing to lose by doing it, and besides, think of the converts! All I can say is that if xtians don't take the bible up on its testing offer, then perhaps in reality, "there are no such things as christians" instead of there being "no such thing as atheists" as your boss Ray Comfort likes to say.
Any ideas on how the letter's wording could have been improved? Could the "Great Commission Drink-Off Challenge" be used in future to refute xtians, or at least make them think twice about claiming that the bible is "god's own word"?
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2002 : 16:38:14 [Permalink]
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Oh, Crap!! I forgot to add to the beginning of first post, the statment that this is a letter I wrote to Ray Comfort's ministry! http://www.raycomfort.com Just have a read. (I really wish there was some way to remove a post if one messes up in writing it!) This is the second time I've done this, dammit!
Anyway, I'm looking for feedback on how to better communicate with those people. Any ideas? (other than re-reading my posts so I don't have to re-post?)
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2002 : 16:53:03 [Permalink]
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There is an icon at the top of each piece that you write that allows you to delete it. It's got a little trash can. And one with a pencil so you can add copy (as I'm doing now)
Where in the morass of Xian conversations the blurbs you're talking about?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 07/16/2002 16:54:24 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2002 : 19:30:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
The problem is, if Jesus is the only way to heaven, those babies never had a chance.
You'll probably get some blather about people in the OT were "living under the Law" and since Jesus, now they're "living under Grace".
Or some such nonsense.
------------
You can tell she's hydrolic...
Her silver scream is supersonic
You can see the mercury smear in her eye... |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2002 : 20:22:15 [Permalink]
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the_ignored: Your letter looks good to me! If you want grammatical correction, I think the only error (and it is so minor, it is now rarely done correctly) is, I believe, the addressee should be "(...whomever's job...)." It has been a while since I have proofread anything though, and I can't seem to find my MLA handbook, so I may be mistaken. quote:
I really wish there was some way to remove a post if one messes up in writing it!
You may not see the icons Slater mentioned if you are not logged in with cookies enabled. If you are really concerned about it, send me a message and I can change anything for you.
-me. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2002 : 10:02:29 [Permalink]
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Ah, that's it. I don't see any trash cans or pencils on my page. When I get back to having my own internet connection again, I'll just have to make sure I have my cookies turned on.
Thanks for the advice, guys.
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2002 : 10:52:51 [Permalink]
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You don't have to go to such draconian measures as the "drink off" challange, the_ignored. Notice verse 15 says "preach the gospel to every CREATURE". That means cats and dogs and parrots and earthworms and snakes.
So take a pet of your choosing to the nearest Christian church and DEMAND that it be baptised!! See how far you get.
Better yet, escort a group of Christians to a city park and challenge them to preach the gospel to skunks. Make sure you stay upwind.
(:raig |
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Satan
New Member
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2002 : 15:52:00 [Permalink]
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I tried to baptize a rabbit once - I never knew rabbit bites hurt so much! 
Satan,
a.k.a. the Talking Snake Whom Atheists, Witches, Muslims, and Puerto Ricans Worship (If You Ask Anyone In This State) |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2002 : 17:26:58 [Permalink]
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So Ignored have you sent your reply off yet?
I see that they post right up front (right after they ask you for money) that they will toss any free thinking out if they catch it.
I like the thread by the guy that sneaks into bookstores and leaves tracts in the books in the Atheist section. Being careful-he points out-never to read anything in any of the books.
I spend a lot of time poking around in book stores and I can't say that I ever remember seeing an Atheist section.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2002 : 05:08:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
I like the thread by the guy that sneaks into bookstores and leaves tracts in the books in the Atheist section. Being careful-he points out-never to read anything in any of the books.
I spend a lot of time poking around in book stores and I can't say that I ever remember seeing an Atheist section. [Slater]
I think that guy must have been refering to the Human Sexuality section. I don't bother to "read" anything there, either.
(:raig |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2002 : 12:37:38 [Permalink]
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And don't forget the Photography/Art section.
Lots of Atheist books on Glamour Photography. 
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You can tell she's hydrolic...
Her silver scream is supersonic
You can see the mercury smear in her eye... |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2002 : 15:44:09 [Permalink]
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Well, here's the reply I got:
quote:
<Name>,
I don't have the time to put into writing all the points that would refute
your improper esogeses of the texts that you mentioned.
It would seem as soon as I answer your questions you will throw other rabbit
trails my way. I don't mind answering your questions, but I only want to
answer the ones that are truly pressing to you.
I hope you understand. If you would like to get a hold of me feel free to
call me at xxx.xxx.xxxx and we will talk about these things.
I wish you all the best!
God Bless you
Until all hear,
Mark Spence
Stay Focused. Life is Quick!
"Do it today you may be dead tomorrow. One day this will be true."
See: www.needGod.com
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2002 : 15:56:25 [Permalink]
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Well, here's something else I found on their site at: http://www.raycomfort.com/home.shtml
quote:
"God told Joshua to kill every man, woman, and child. If that's your 'God of love,' I don't want to have anything to do with Him!" God didn't confine His wrath to the Canaanites. He proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity. We will all die because we have broken God's Law. Every one of us is waiting on death's row. Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, come down from your throne and judge yourself according to the Law of God. You will find that you have a multitude of sins and you therefore are not in a position to point your holier-than-thou finger at another sinner, let alone a holy God.
They don't seem to realize that most sinners have never killed, or given the ORDER to kill "every man, woman, and child". If you can't judge a mass-murderer, who can you judge?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2002 : 16:48:00 [Permalink]
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It's those damned improper esogeses. They will get you every time. The proper ones are bad enough.
Do we think he meant "eisegesis" which is Greek for "you are wrong and I am right about what the bible means." Funny that this is such a common practice among Xians that there is actually a word for it.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2002 : 16:55:54 [Permalink]
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I know it's been said over and over again but it is quite telling that Christians choose to lie to promote their cause. Not all of course but many of the most dedicated seem to go right down that path without even flinching. Their mothers must be proud!
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2002 : 07:07:43 [Permalink]
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From http://www.raycomfort.com/home.shtml - the Uncle Sam Tract #292
quote:
Jesus said, "Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her, has committed adultery already with her in his heart." Ever looked with lust? If you said "Yes" to these three questions, by your own admission, you are a lying, thieving, adulterer at heart.
Gezza's dad said, "Son, it doesn't matter where you get your appetite, just as long as you come home for dinner"
I like my Dad's idea much better.
I would rather be the offspring of two apes than be a man and afraid to face the truth.
-- Thomas Huxley
Edited by - gezzam on 07/20/2002 07:09:16 |
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