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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 07/20/2002 : 11:17:14
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In Australia we have had political fallout about so called “illegal immigrants”.
Since the Taliban took over Afghanistan, there has been a constant trickle of refugees hitting our North West Coast. Since you guys bombed the hell out of the place, it has turned into a flood, that I suppose was the inevitable fallout for actions that had to take place. We pretty much put these people in jail or “Detention Centres” as the government likes to call them until it can be determined if they are legitimate refugees. I don't know why, but this can take up to two years. The number of these people is about 2,000. Apart from that there are thousands that have been placed in the “Pacific Solution”. This is where we leave the poor bastards on an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean (which sounds good at first, however if you see the squalor of their living conditions you would be appalled) until their refugee status is determined.
Now, I am leading somewhere so bear with me. As a nation founded by convicts and boosted by immigrants after the Second World War, we are now closing the doors firmly on people who are in desperate need of help. Our nation used to accept people of all races and denominations with open arms, however now, unless you are European the populace doesn't want a bar of you. This letter in the paper is an example of the closed mindedness of the average Australian. “The most worrying issue concerning the influx of alleged refugees from Muslim countries, is that they bring their ancient beliefs and culture with them and demand to allowed to continue with the laws of the Koran, which clearly gives a man permission to beat up his wife if she dares to disobey. There is no place for barbarism in this civilised country. Australians do not have a blood-lust for public executions either. “ This is obviously the mindset of most Australians because immigration was the platform the current government used to keep power. They used footage from the Navy of refugees allegedly throwing their children into the water and our Prime Minister stated publicly that “We don't want these type of people in out country” – I bet the Koori's (Aboriginals) must laugh at those words. It came out four months after the federal election that the boat was actually sinking and they were throwing the kids in the water to save them. After a Royal Commission, no one could be held responsible or would take responsibility for the lie, this was made easier that the then Minister for Defence had retired and “could not recollect” everything about the issue.
Our government has been using scare tactics to say that these people could easily be terrorists and yes there is a chance that some are, however to be holed up in the middle of the fucking desert for two years is despicable treatment of humans. Innocent until proven guilty is one of our democratic rights.
We currently have over 20,000 Europeans that are here overstaying their visas, however they hardly get a mention.
The story that this links too is about two young Afghani boys who escaped from the detention centre at Woomera and attempted to seek political asylum at the British Consulate in Melbourne, only to be knocked back. Their father was granted a temporary visa about a year ago, however these boys, their mother and their three sisters have been holed up for over a year. Once they were denied asylum by the Brits they were shipped back quick smart back to whence they came. Kids should NOT be behind barbed wire, they should be given a chance.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,4742679%255E662,00.html
Now this issue has been burning me up for some time, my parents were immigrants from Germany in the 50's and have worked hard and raised four successful kids who have had children themselves. We only have 20, 000,00 people and a country the size of the U.S.A, but we treat these people with no compassion and it almost ashames me to be an Aussie sometimes.
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 07/20/2002 : 13:49:01 [Permalink]
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We here in Germany have had a similar problem with the fallout of the civil war in Yugoslavia for the past decade. Our laws say that we can't send anyone back if he is going to get killed at home. With all the ethnic cleansing going on alomst everyone from that area could make a good case for being persecuted at home. Lots of refugees and asylum seekers.
Germany is one of the countries most open to asylum seekers in western europe and took the large share of the refugees.
The problem was made worse throgh a bad economy situation that is always in need of a conveninat scapegoat. Sloagans like "The boat is full" had a good receptance among the jobless and stupid masses. None but a few neonazis went as far as going for outright xenophobia though.
It has gotten somewhat better recently, with asylum seekers being shipped back to help rebuild their country; now that our politicians have deemed it safe for them to go back.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2002 : 17:17:38 [Permalink]
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Yeah, they're using scare tactics. To immigrate to a country, a person must accept the laws of that country.
In the US, Australia, Germany, UK, whatever, beating your wife is called "assault". An honor killing is called "murder". And not every muslim man spends his time thinking up ways to off his wife, sister, and daughter. These are the cases that get the headlines.
The refugees are escaping unimaginable horror. The Taliban were murdering thousands who didn't agree with them. I'm sure most of these immigrants would be happy to follow the laws of your country. Sure beats getting shot in the middle of the night.
We have enough youth. We need a fountain of smart. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2002 : 00:01:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yeah, they're using scare tactics. To immigrate to a country, a person must accept the laws of that country.
In the US, Australia, Germany, UK, whatever, beating your wife is called "assault". An honor killing is called "murder
Yes, but aren't there xians here in the USA who say they 'answer to a higher law'? That's why killing abortion doctors is ok!
There are always going to be nut cases anywhere in the world who won't follow the laws of the country or the generally accepted social rules.
About Australia, perhaps I'm wrong but I was under the impression that for many years they didn't allow immigration of minorities. And only recently has that changed. Was that correct?
I used to think, and believing that was true of your country, it was a good idea because think of all the problems that would have been solved if Abraham Lincoln had lived and his plan to send the slaves back was completed. If people can't get along perhaps they should have their own little areas of the world to live in.
Many have tried it but the world keeps creeping in on them. I keep trying too but the damn government won't leave me alone either.
Can't the Australian gov. give the muslums a place to be by themselves and stay out of their business. Hum! I guess they are doing that. So just leave them there to start their own society?
When the Viet Nameese came here to the USA after the war, from what I've seen for the most part, they have adapted to the society here. The kids go to school and are well educated, they've started businesses and have their communities, they fit in nicely. There, that's one example of what you are talking about.
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*Carabao forever
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SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2002 : 11:39:47 [Permalink]
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Ah yes the immigrant problem. We have it here in Canada too. When people start howling about it they usually start out by saying we are the most generous country in the world when it comes to immigrants and it is time to close the screen door.
Of course the problem is not immigrants as such, but more the colour of their skin. The fable goes that the government is too tough on the Europeans and not tough enough on the East Asians. The reality is Europeans have a pretty good life for themselves and are not much encouraged to come to Canada any more.
To be fair though a significant amount of the complaining is about the que jumpers. Instead of going through the usual procedures of immigration they claim refugee status when they land at the airport. Although, most of the refugee claiments come through the US and claim it at the boarder.
I have much sypathy for these people that want to come to Canada. In the past, I spent about 6 months in a third world country and if you are poor it is not a plesant life.
There is some irony here in that our census data just came out and it show that our birthrate is too low to maintain our population. We need the immigrants. Mine is a big country and there is lots more room for more people.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2002 : 23:58:18 [Permalink]
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In the past, I spent about 6 months in a third world country and if you are poor it is not a plesant life.
Can you define what you mean by poor.
IMO, it depends what country under what conditions. There are so called 3rd world countries that are maybe poor by some standards but the people are not starving or unhappy. And it depends on what one thinks is poor. Not having enough to eat and living in trashy areas? Or just not having modern conveniences?
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*Carabao forever
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SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2002 : 10:10:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is some irony here in that our census data just came out and it show that our birthrate is too low to maintain our population. We need the immigrants. Mine is a big country and there is lots more room for more people.
Same in Oz as well, in fact there is new legislation currently going through the senate where mothers will be payed 12 months maternity leave so we start having babies again. Strange isn't it, overpopulation in some parts of the world and we, with such a huge country can't even sustain our own.
quote:
Can't the Australian gov. give the Muslims a place to be by themselves and stay out of their business. Hum! I guess they are doing that. So just leave them there to start their own society?
Yeah, that is a good idea, but this shit farm is out in the desert near the Woomera rocket range and only a few hundred miles form Maralinga, the British Atomic testing grounds. In Melbourne where I live there are pockets where people from their respective parts of the world seem to congregate. This is normal I suppose, but second generation Australians seem to assimilate pretty well.
I would rather be the offspring of two apes than be a man and afraid to face the truth.
-- Thomas Huxley |
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Strychnos
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2002 : 10:11:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
About Australia, perhaps I'm wrong but I was under the impression that for many years they didn't allow immigration of minorities. And only recently has that changed. Was that correct?
They had an official, stated "White Australia" immigration policy.
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 01:36:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
About Australia, perhaps I'm wrong but I was under the impression that for many years they didn't allow immigration of minorities. And only recently has that changed. Was that correct?
They had an official, stated "White Australia" immigration policy.
Yeah, that was in place until the late 50's. However it seems that our Prime Minister "Honest Johnny" wants to head back to those apparent halcyon days.
I would rather be the offspring of two apes than be a man and afraid to face the truth.
-- Thomas Huxley |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2002 : 09:22:57 [Permalink]
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In Australia we have had political fallout about so called “illegal immigrants”.
I clipped quite a bit of your message for ease of reading my reply without quoting the entire message. I will try to address every part of the original message.
Australia has become quite like the US. The only difference is the side of the street you drive on. We have the same basic camps for Cuban illegals since we can't return them. We don't use the island idea. It didn't work too well during the Hatiti dust up. (Hatitian refugees were quartered at Guantanimo Bay, Cuba where the population of refugees started outstripping the resources available.)
The sentiments issued by your legislators is an echo from our own fundamentalist Christian leaders like Jerry Falwell and Senator Pat Buchanan. The immigration issue seems a little hypocritical from a nation of immigrants. David Duke was famous for spouting off about how all the immigrants should go back to their own country. I always imagined the ghost of Chief Seattle saying, "I'll help you pack."
Seriously, though. Illegal immigration is a serious problem. Here in the US we have about 3-5 million illegal mexican immigrants. All that the majority of them are here for is work. Two amnesties have been granted so that the illegals could apply for citizenship or visas. Quite a few waited until the last minute and some didn't attempt it at all. As illegal immigrants, they pay no taxes, get substandard wages, no healthcare, and are a burden on the society. Why? Because should they become sick or injured, they walk into the nearest hospital emergency room and get treatment. Hospitals here can not refuse treatment for sickness or injury based on the ability to pay. Many of these debts are written off as bad debt as the individuals are in no position to pay the bill. If they became legal immigrants, they would have to pay taxes but would be entitled to a safe working environment at a fair wage and the possibility of healthcare coverage.
The arguement that the legislator makes of them wanting to bring their culture of Qu'ran based beating women over is specious. Any immigrant has to obey the laws of the country they are in. The US has many Muslim citizens who aren't pushing for public executions or legal wife beating. They understand that their current country forbids such practices which does not interfere with their religious freedom. Perhaps the legislator could also examine the Bible which also says that a husband may beat his wife if she disobeys.
Likewise, we have many aliens overstaying their visas. Not nearly as many illegals, but quite a few.
Canada is considered by many in the US as just another state due to the similar laws and largely unguarded border. I've joked that going to Canada was like going to Wisconsin. The people are a little different but they are basically a lot of nice people. It was also suggested that Quebec should be allowed to seceede and the rest of Canada should apply for US statehood. But I digress, again.
Basically, no, you are not alone in your estimation of anti-immigration rhetoric brought by the government.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.
Edited by - valiant dancer on 08/14/2002 09:33:07 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2002 : 10:16:11 [Permalink]
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Seriously, though. Illegal immigration is a serious problem. ... As illegal immigrants, they pay no taxes, get substandard wages, no healthcare, and are a burden on the society.
Read this article for a different perspective on whether or not they are a burden upon society.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2002 : 12:42:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Seriously, though. Illegal immigration is a serious problem. ... As illegal immigrants, they pay no taxes, get substandard wages, no healthcare, and are a burden on the society.
Read this article for a different perspective on whether or not they are a burden upon society.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
I have read your article. It has some really absurd propositions. Minimum wage is $5.15 per hour. The immigrants would still be able to make $6 per hour. The difference is the amount of pressure that the individuals that use illegals for work can bring. In some cases, the employers call INS before the pay out date to get the labor for nothing. There are always scads of illegals to take the place of the deported workers. In Chicago, bad debt of illegals strike healthcare very hard. With Medicare and Medicaid approaching bad debt status in healthcare and costs skyrocketing, the hospitals and clinics are struggling to keep afloat. The taxes paid in help support this system.
By requiring the workers to be legal immigrants, it also has benefits for the workers. Access to ADC, access to medicaid (at least the hospitals get something), access to work without the fear of someone turning them into the INS so as not to pay them, some form of security.
Is our system broken? You bet. We need more INS clerks and processors to quickly get immigration visas and work visas investigated and approved. And this quota crap has got to go.
If you don't think healthcare is affected, you're kidding yourself. I've been working in healthcare for 14 years. My salary is about 1/2 that of other people with my job description.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2002 : 13:18:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
It has some really absurd propositions.
Like what? I haven't read it in a few years, I just remember it being an interesting take on what the effects might be if we rounded up all the illegals who worked in our fields and chicken plants and deported them, and then had to replace all those workers with unionized American citizens.
I posted it because I found it interesting, not as some kind of support for a personal position of mine.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2002 : 09:26:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
It has some really absurd propositions.
Like what? I haven't read it in a few years, I just remember it being an interesting take on what the effects might be if we rounded up all the illegals who worked in our fields and chicken plants and deported them, and then had to replace all those workers with unionized American citizens.
I posted it because I found it interesting, not as some kind of support for a personal position of mine.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
It lumped recent legal and illegal immigrants together. It also claimed that somehow, the price for the labor would jump by 100%. Based on some nebulous "Americans wouldn't do it for less" specious reasoning. It claims that the only way this work could get done is by illegal immigration or reinstituting slavery. It bases this assertation on a few farmers who exclusively use illegal immigrants and the immigrants themselves. There are no discussions with those farmers who don't use illegal immigrants. (and there are some. I used to live down the street from one.)
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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