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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2002 : 12:17:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
You contend that there is a god and by your own admission admit that you have no evidence to base your contention on.
I said there is no objective PHYSICAL evidence, which is what you demand. There is subjective spiritual evidence that God exists, only to experience that evidence God must be working in your life. Since for now He doesn't seem to be doing that for you, then it is no wonder you cannot feel that evidence.
Without physical evidence you cannot say one way or the other whether God exists, but if you felt that spiritual evidence then you would know He existed, without the need for physical evidence. Some people would call that faith, but by any word it means the same thing.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 12:31:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Without physical evidence you cannot say one way or the other whether God exists, but if you felt that spiritual evidence then you would know He existed, without the need for physical evidence. Some people would call that faith, but by any word it means the same thing.
So every human who has ever "felt that spiritual evidence" for their respective god/gods means that all those god/gods existed?
Many if not most humans throughout history have "felt" this about their religions. They have had the exact same convincing "spiritual evidence" that you claim to have. Why do you think yours is the only true feeling that is worthy of an existential claim?
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 12:50:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is subjective spiritual evidence that God exists, only to experience that evidence God must be working in your life.
I don't know what more to say. This is exactly my complaint when I say that you do not use the liberal scientific method.
According to my pocket Webster's subjective measn: of one's feelings rather than from facts. This is the definition I am going by when I use the word. If you are using a different meaning please let me know.
There is no such thing as subjective evidence nor is there such a thing as spiritual evidence.
For something to be evidence it must-again by definition- be evident.
You are using buzz words that describe your imagination, not evidence. Can you not tell the difference between the two?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 13:07:45 [Permalink]
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Here is a great article dealing with "subjective evidence".
quote:
Perhaps such things [beauty of nature] are gifts of God if we assume Christian theism, but evidence is supposed to support a proposition, not follow from it.
quote:
First, there are those who claim to experience the absence of God. If there can be subjective evidence for God, then there can be subjective evidence against God. If it is questioned how one can experience the non-existence of God, it is equally ambiguous as to how one can experience the existence of God.
Finally all I have to say is just because a person or a group of people have a subjective "spiritual" experience it is in no way empirical evidence for any existance of a spiritual realm or deity.
oops forgot the link
http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/philo/subjective.html
Edited by - jmcginn on 08/01/2002 13:09:50 |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 15:13:46 [Permalink]
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So Mr. Enemies, if I feel "spiritual evidence" of Isis, does that mean that I have good evidence that she exists?
Edited by - antie on 08/01/2002 15:14:20 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 15:25:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is subjective spiritual evidence that God exists, only to experience that evidence God must be working in your life. Since for now He doesn't seem to be doing that for you, then it is no wonder you cannot feel that evidence.
I think I'll try this at my next meeting.
"Ladies and gentlemen I am pleased to announce that I have the evidence we have all been looking for. But I must tell you that only very very special chosen people will be able to see it. If you can't see it that means there's something lacking about you as a person."
Nah, they didn't fall it when I used the same tactic the day I came in in my underwear. Where is Hans Christian Andersen when you need him?
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"Gertie, don't tell mom about ET"
"Why not?"
"Because...because only kids can see him."
"Gimme a break Eliot." |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 16:02:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
As a scientist you should based your conclusion on facts; since God is not a physical entitiy and does not operate within the physical realm, there are no facts to base a conclusion on.
If god does not operate in the physical realm, and we operate exclusively in the physical realm, how does this god have any effect on us?
Contrarily, if god does affect us physically (and I include brain and emotional processes as part of the physical realm), then how can he not be amenable to scientific study?
The only way you can claim that god is non-physical and yet affects us physically is to claim that there is some non-physical component of humans that god can operate on. Is this your position? Do you maintain that god can only affect the human soul, but not the physical bodies that house it? If god operates exclusively in the non-physical realm, how did he create the physical universe? Magic, perhaps? The power of positive thinking?
Either this god can and does affect the material world (in which case we should be able to detect him, but we haven't), or he cannot and does not affect the material world, in which case he's impotent and irrelevant. Either way it seems pretty useless to spend a lot of effort worshipping him.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 07:17:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
There is subjective spiritual evidence that God exists, only to experience that evidence God must be working in your life.
I don't know what more to say. This is exactly my complaint when I say that you do not use the liberal scientific method.
I don't know what more to say either. God and spirituality are not scientific phenomena, so they cannot be investigated scientifically. You are using the wrong the methodology, the wrong evidentury basis, to determine whether God exists. Hence you come to a false conclusion. I am simply trying to explain what methodology and evidence you need to draw a proper conclusion. If you refuse to use the right methodology and insist upon using a wrong one (the wrong one for finding God, not for studying the universe), then I cannot help you.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 07:19:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Without physical evidence you cannot say one way or the other whether God exists, but if you felt that spiritual evidence then you would know He existed, without the need for physical evidence. Some people would call that faith, but by any word it means the same thing.
So every human who has ever "felt that spiritual evidence" for their respective god/gods means that all those god/gods existed?
What I believe is that many of those people felt the presence of God, but because of their cultural beliefs they failed to recognize who and what He was.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 07:22:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Finally all I have to say is just because a person or a group of people have a subjective "spiritual" experience it is in no way empirical evidence for any existance of a spiritual realm or deity.
Exactly my point: it is not empirical evidence, and so one cannot say, empirically, whether God exists. One can only decide subjectively for him- or herself, whether God exists.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 07:36:25 [Permalink]
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Actually, from my experience, what everyone experiences when they "experience god" in one form or another, is the fear of reality. What they are actually experiencing, but are afraid to admit, is the absence of gods.
Again, this is my own subjective experience and the observation of others.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Without physical evidence you cannot say one way or the other whether God exists, but if you felt that spiritual evidence then you would know He existed, without the need for physical evidence. Some people would call that faith, but by any word it means the same thing.
So every human who has ever "felt that spiritual evidence" for their respective god/gods means that all those god/gods existed?
What I believe is that many of those people felt the presence of God, but because of their cultural beliefs they failed to recognize who and what He was.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/02/2002 08:11:01 |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 07:50:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Finally all I have to say is just because a person or a group of people have a subjective "spiritual" experience it is in no way empirical evidence for any existance of a spiritual realm or deity.
Exactly my point: it is not empirical evidence, and so one cannot say, empirically, whether God exists. One can only decide subjectively for him- or herself, whether God exists.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all!
And at that point it is a baseless opinion of the believer despite the lack of *real* evidence. In other words the term "subjective evidence" is a fancy way of saying "in my opinion based on my beliefs" and is an attempt to make it sound more valid than it really is.
How about changing the phrase from "subjective evidence" to "subjective opinion" for that is all it is and I don't think you will find many here objecting to. Its your attempt to call your opinion "evidence" when it clearly is not.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 11:48:33 [Permalink]
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God and spirituality are not scientific phenomena, so they cannot be investigated scientifically. You are using the wrong the methodology, the wrong evidentury basis, to determine whether God exists.
You and I both know what science is. The basic methodology is to examine the facts and draw conclusions from them. This is sometimes difficult because, being primates, we often decide ahead of time what results we would prefer to find. Facts, however, exist independently of our desires. Sometimes the truth is not what we would wish it to be. Primates learn this at a very early age. It is a difficult lesson. But, if you honor TRUTH, you must learn it.
If you "cook" the facts to reflect your personal beliefs you lose any chance of finding out the truth. You become trapped in a lie.
You are claiming you use "correct" evidentiary basis while ignoring the fact that since it is baseless. You have no evidence to base it on. You have no way of actually knowing that what you claim is the truth is the truth.
Hence you come to a false conclusion. I am simply trying to explain what methodology and evidence you need to draw a proper conclusion.
You are abandoning truth.
If you refuse to use the right methodology and insist upon using a wrong one (the wrong one for finding God, not for studying the universe), then I cannot help you.
Another word that means the same thing as the liberal scientific method is "honesty." You can only find gods if you abandon honesty. You cannot do it by examining facts.
You abandon honesty to declare that you know that there is a god.
You abandon honesty when you misstate the teachings of Christianity. Finding that you are a kinder, more moral person than the Jesus character you change Christianity to suit yourself. You want it to be as decent as you are and turn a blind eye to the facts.
You abandon honesty on the subjects of ESP and Zoology.
I shudder to think of the consequences if you should decide to use this "methodology" (when did willfully ignoring facts in favor of fantasy {magic} become a methodology?) in your work on DS children.
Gorgo postulated that the abandonment of this honesty is based on fear. The fear to face life as it is. I hope he's correct because if it isn't that it's a mental illness.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 12:26:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
liberal scientific method
I just gotta say that this term cracked me up. Maybe there's a liberal law of gravity too. Pah-leeeeeeeeze.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 13:10:11 [Permalink]
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I don't know where it got that name from.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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