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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 08/06/2002 : 09:17:20 [Permalink]
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I've actually never known any theists that refer to themselves as theists, either.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 10:26:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've never run across an actual one in real life or on the web.
Anyone who claims that God exists but that it is impossible to understand or "know" God is an agnostic theist. It is quite common.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/06/2002 10:28:08 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 10:42:56 [Permalink]
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But isn't the specific knowledge that Agnostics lack which makes them Agnostics in the first place the knowledge of whether or not god exists? Not what god likes to do on his days off.
Doesn't believing that god exists automaticaly make you a Theist.
You might be an uninformed Theist but you consider yourself informed enough to believe.
We need to do a search to find one of these Agnostic Theist hybrids and get them to do some self defining for us.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 10:52:13 [Permalink]
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No theist knows that god exists, they only believe he does.
No theist I know of calls himself a theist, so your argument that no agnostic calls himself a theist is not valid. Doesn't matter what they call themselves, what definition are you working with?
The definition we're working with is
a-gnostic = lack of knowledge
a-theist - lack of belief
Other definitions may or may not be valid.
quote:
But isn't the specific knowledge that Agnostics lack which makes them Agnostics in the first place the knowledge of whether or not god exists? Not what god likes to do on his days off.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 11:26:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
But isn't the specific knowledge that Agnostics lack which makes them Agnostics in the first place the knowledge of whether or not god exists?
Well, there's really more than one definition. In a broad sense, that's right, but technically, being an agnostic means you believe something is unknowable, regardless of whether you believe what you think is unknowable actually exists.
quote:
Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
Date: 1869
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
I would call a Deist an agnostic theist.
But hey, I could be wrong. 
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 11:37:10 [Permalink]
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To come at this from another angle, we can use the definition of atheist to determine that the usage of the word agnostic to mean "one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god" is not semantically correct (SC  ).
Since "atheist" means lacking a belief in god(s), if we use the above definition for agnostic, then all agnostics are atheists also.
But agnostics seem to have a problem with being called atheists for some reason, even though they lack a god belief, and meet the definition.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 13:12:53 [Permalink]
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There is that cool Agnostic bumper sticker that says I don't know and damnit neither do you
The difference between Agnostics and Atheists has always seemed to me (please note this is my opinion and only an opinion, all who are quick to jump down throats) that Agnostics leave it at that while Atheists consider the fact, that the claimants don't know, reason enough to dismiss the claim.
Or it could just be that Agnostics like getting asked out to dinner and elected to public office more than Atheists do.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 18:38:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Or it could just be that Agnostics like getting asked out to dinner and elected to public office more than Atheists do.
This gets my vote.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 19:25:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Or it could just be that Agnostics like getting asked out to dinner and elected to public office more than Atheists do.
I'm sorry but this is the only part I take issue with. If anyone is ever confused about what I mean by agnostic and think I am closer to a believer than to atheism I set them straight because I am not an agnostic for PC reasons. I also do not think Deists are agnostic. From what I gather, and i could be wrong, deists believe quite strongly that there is a god but they don't buy into any personal revelation.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 20:24:56 [Permalink]
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Someone phrased it this way recently: What do agnostics give as the answer to, "Is 'God exists' a true statement?" If they say "no," they're just as much atheists as all the self-identified atheists.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 20:36:43 [Permalink]
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I might be able to be convinced that there are no agnostic theists, but I will stand by my assertion that all agnostics are atheists.
There's no way around it. Like PhDreamer said, if your answer to "Does God exist?" is anything other than "yes", you are an atheist.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/06/2002 20:37:31 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 20:51:16 [Permalink]
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According to Gorgo and my Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms, we have the following:
a-gnostic: without knowledge
a-the-ist: without belief in (any) god
From these, there seems to be very little functional difference between the two. I, however, choose to call myself agnostic, since it asserts the position that I really don't know.
It seems quite obvious that if one does not know something, one cannot believe it; however, one can assert that there is no god, implying knowledge and a lack of belief in god. Thus, as many have been saying, one can be an atheist who doesn't believe ("I don't believe in god")or an atheist who disbelieves ("there is no god"). There is only one kind of agnostic, though: one who just does not know ("I dunno ... there could be a god, I guess").
So the title "agnostic" is merely a refinement of the title "atheist."
-me. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 22:47:15 [Permalink]
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Well, now it's all clear.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 01:33:05 [Permalink]
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My opinion:
This Ethelroi guy is about 2 steps away from questioning his beliefs, in depth.
That is, if he's for real.
I don't think one can continue his line of reasoning withouth thinking 'But wait!' soon.
If you think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 08:46:04 [Permalink]
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I dunno. Look at what he writes about ESP and cryptozoology. He's says that you have to apply "spiritual methodology" when talking about god. But he's applying it to zoology and the study of the brain too.
To make it worse he claims the field he works in deals with brain research.
I don't think a "but wait!" is going to come at all, & I'm afraid he's going to hurt somebody.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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