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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2002 : 04:29:36 [Permalink]
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Even if everything I've said to this point is wrong, there is no justification for spending this kind of money on the military. It's a criminal act in and of itself.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 13:27:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Your remark, "I WAS FOREIGN POLICY" was priceless, but you don't have a clue about what you're talking about
--of course, not. After all, I was only there first hand. Absolutely someone spouting off from behond a computer with no experience except posting psuedo-intellectual crap on a BBS knows more than me. Sure.
quote:
However, in Somalia, while the U.S. certainly can't be blamed for all of Somalia's problems, the U.S. certainly did more harm than good, and Operation Restore Hope certainly did more harm than good
--Restore Hope was the Somalia operation.
And it did alot of harm to some fine US soldiers. It harmed the US image. But it didn't harm the Somalis at all. In fact we went so far out of our way not to hurt anyone but the warlord's men, we didn't have an AC-130 there, which would have altered the Oct 3-4 raid totally. I wouldn't have had to bury so many friends.
We fed (or protected the UN convoys) the somalis more in a day than they had in years. So from a humanitarian viewpoint, it was not a loss. At least until Clintonm turned tail and ran like a scolded dog.
If you are debating the cost effectiveness of humanitarian missions, then I won't argue they are incredible drains on resources with very little physical return. The payoff is in the form of moral legitimacy and taking the global lead in humanitarian efforts. Whether that is worth the price is dependant on whether you think the US should pay to feed starving people in places like africa. Or if the US has a moral obligation to stop ethnic cleansing. Things like that. The cost is easy to count, but the payoff is intangable.
Should US soldiers (and US tax dollars) go to being the world's HMO and police force?
There's arguments for both sides. But the military doesn't make people suffer very much. Even the sanctions against Iraq that hurt the people are economic, not military (although the military may be needed to enforce them).
When we go anywhere, the locals always line up for hand outs, medical help, engineering tasks (I've built more than my share of wells), and protection.
The footage of anti-US riots on CNN are not what they seem. Alot of those same people pelting us with rocks go strait over to a food station after and eat the only food they will see all day. The vast majority of indigs we have to nab and confine are thieves, not militants.
We try not to hammer civilians, but the bad guys don't care. I've been shot at from behind a crowd of women and children. What the hell are you supposed to do then? So we take fire and never even fire back so we don't smoke an indig out for a walk. It's not natural for an army to take fire without massive retaliation, so I think we're pretty restrained. Plus, like I said, we never go anywhere without bringing stuff like medicine and food for the indigs.
It's up to you whether you think that's appropriate use for our military and tax dollars.
Smell the glove!!!!
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 13:28:26 [Permalink]
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And yeah, we did kinda hijack this thread. So if you want, I promise to drop the tangent.
Smell the glove!!!!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 16:15:18 [Permalink]
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They turned Somalia mostly into a hunt for warlords. This was an attempt to prove to the people of the U.S. that stifling Defense budgets were not out of line, even though the Somalia mission cost very little in comparison to the budget.
There is nothing humanitarian about the U.S. genocide of the people of Iraq, or the U.S. subsidization of the repression of the Kurds, or the brutal U.S. takeover of Panama.
There was nothing humanitarian about the U.S. attack on South Vietnam. Nothing humanitarian about U.S. support for Suharto, overthrow of popularly elected Central American leaders.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 16:16:27 [Permalink]
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Well, when you quit calling people names and insulting broad sections of the population, you can have a few intelligent things to say.
I do appreciate hearing about your actual experiences.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 18:09:15 [Permalink]
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What about that makes you an infallible expert?
quote:
--of course, not. After all, I was only there first hand.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 20:43:19 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I have a chicken wing bone to pick with you (get it? It's just a small bone).
You come off as US bashing, and in this case bashing the military. Now, I have to disagree with you.
The main reason is because the US is the best cop on the block. I'll give you that there's corruption and ulterior motives, however, the alternatives are even worse.
Keep in mind that while the US is doing what it's doing in it's best interestes (or in the interests of big money or whatever you want to pin it on) they still must provide good face to the media. They have to look good doing what they do. And this media glare provides benefit for the people on whom they're interloping.
If you have a better solution, please provide it.
Thanks.
Ed.
If you think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 21:34:14 [Permalink]
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Hey fellas, you guys want to take this to a more appropriate thread? Either start one about Somalia, defense spending, whatever, or try to come up with something remotely related to Dr Shari's OP.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2002 : 04:55:16 [Permalink]
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If you want to start a new thread, please do, but please be clear about your position, because I'm not sure with where you're agreeing and disagreeing with me. Are you saying that there is some benefit to the people of Iraq for being nearly carptet bombed for 42 days, with terror attacks at least monthly, and sometimes daily for the last ten years? Is there some benefit to depriving them of clean water and reasonable medical treatment for the last ten years?
What alternative are you talking about? The alternative that the U.S. seems to promise? Democracy? Freedom? Peace?
quote:
Gorgo, I have a chicken wing bone to pick with you (get it? It's just a small bone).
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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