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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2002 : 10:24:05 [Permalink]
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Gorgo weighs in with the Federal Government-Military-Industrial Complex brainwashing conspriacy. I heard the same thing on the X-Files once.
But he's not too far off from reality. I'm not so ready to see such an insidious plot spanning all entertainment. But it does act to push it's own agendas. I don't really think hip hop is popular because Bush wants it so, however.
I think the music industry has marketed a criminal and violent mantra (one not even based in reality) onto the mass of American kids. The music industry does more to hype the gang influence in rap than the rappers themselves. The supposed East vs West gang thing was entirely fabricated by the record industry to boost sales and cause news worthy events. Alot of dipshits that believe in rap died as a result. They bought into the media swill and supported it with murder. "Hey if Tupac says it's so....."
A key issue is the realtiy of what the music industry claims as truth. In my day the uproar was over two things:
Satanism in Heavy Metal
Boy Fucking George
But not even in my misspent teenage years did I ever take the satanic references from bands like Slayer or Venom seriously. I may not have been a tree huggin' hippy, but I wasn't sacrificing cats.
Rap is presented as real life. And while it's lyrics may describe a few real people or events, it certainly doesn't apply to the vast majority that listen to it. So they attempt to recreate the message in thier own lives. Hence gangs in towns like Colorado Springs or Wichita. Hence gangland murder in middle class 'burbs all over the country.
Kids today, by and large, learn more from Mtv than they do in school. This is a failing of both the parents and the schools, but nonetheless impacts millions of Americans.
If entertainment is going to have the same (or in some cases more) impact than teachers, should it not be held to a standard like educators? If a teacher was found out to be pushing a pro-nazi viewpoint in class, he'd get strung up.
While rappers may not claim to be educators, they and thier music does teach. It teaches that gangs are where the cool kids are, that someone not giving you the proper 'respect' you feel you deserve is a capital offence, that women are 'ho's, bitches and the like, and that bigotry you would never accept from someone else is okay coming from your own clique.
If the message were cartoonish like the satanism in heavy metal, I'd have no problems with it. But the message in rap is not portrayed as cartoonish. It's reported as fact and many otherwise good kids beleive it and get into trouble.
No remorse, No repent. We don't care what it meant. Another day another death. Another sorrow another breath. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2002 : 10:41:46 [Permalink]
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Companies spend billions of dollars every year to run 30 second little flashy spots on tv, with celebrity actors and/or popular music.
They spend this ridiculous amount of money because...
wait for it...
IT INFLUENCES PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR!
It will certainly never, ever, ever be as simple as "the music he listened to caused him to commit suicide!"
But it certainly does influence the way people (teenagers, mostly) behave. They emulate rap stars clothing and mannerisms, why should it be such a stretch to believe that they will emulate the behavior that the rappers are glorifying? (Why any woman in the world would listen to most of that nonsense is inconceivable to me).
I saw a letter to Rolling Stone quite a few years ago on this very subject, and I thought it was very well said. In response to the rapper's defense: "I'm jus tellin' it like it is!", a reader responded (paraphrasing here):
"Anyone can tell it like it is. It takes real courage to tell it like it should be."
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The NASA Vision:
To improve life here,
To extend life to there,
To find life beyond.
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 09/04/2002 10:46:58 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2002 : 11:10:08 [Permalink]
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Any time you don't understand something, must be that someone else is a nut, right? Couldn't be you, right?
I'm talking about tendencies. Not that six people don't ever get together in a room to decide things, they certainly have and still do. However, the tendency is to promote certain things and to not promote certain other things. Not so hard to understand.
That's why the corporate media has a tendency to simply regurgitate State Department handouts. It's less costly and it causes them fewer problems. Their business is to sell ads, not to sell news.
More profitable to fill your papers with things that corporations and government officials like to hear than to educate the public. Easier to fill the papers with nonsense like astrology and Jesus and "evildoers" than actually do any work, like reporting what is actually going on in the world.
quote:
But he's not too far off from reality. I'm not so ready to see such an insidious plot spanning all entertainment. But it does act to push it's own agendas.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2002 : 14:59:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
But not even in my misspent teenage years did I ever take the satanic references from bands like Slayer or Venom seriously. I may not have been a tree huggin' hippy, but I wasn't sacrificing cats.
Rap is presented as real life.
Just a comment:
That's right crime is real too so if as everyone is saying rap crap glorifies it, it's easy to try something criminal.
With Heavy Metal, again that's right it was more fantasy. No one is going to dress up like KISS (with few execptions-Me!) and walk around the streets. Whereas it's easy to do criminal acts.
 Once I went to my doctors office with a big black star painted over my eye. I never did find out what he wrote in my chart about that. (Although I did see another time where he mentioned I came dressed as a pirate.) Perhaps it's best I don't like, that is I HATE rap crap, I don't like the idea of shooting people(for no good reason).
Can someone PLEASE explain why commericals,
''INFLUENCES PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR''? I don't understand.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2002 : 16:27:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Any time you don't understand something, must be that someone else is a nut, right? Couldn't be you, right?
--Sorry dude, but you have continually spouted classic conspiracy theory garbage.
My assertion is that the music industry promotes a glorification of criminal behavior that suburban kids, too worried about being trendy to know better, take seriously and gang wackiness ensues.
I didn't say anything about the State Dept and the secret mission of diverting people's attention from those evil plots Washington has planned.
Diversion? Yes, mass entertainment is obviously a diversion.
A diversion controlled by DC to manipulate the population so it can wage war nilly-willy? No, that's conspiracy crap.
No remorse, No repent. We don't care what it meant. Another day another death. Another sorrow another breath. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 01:00:10 [Permalink]
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Nothing wrong with diversion. It's when it appears that there's nothing more important happening than Princess Di, or whether Puffy and Jennifer will get back together that's the problem.
I don't have a big problem with rappers talking about the gangster life, or rockers or blues singers talking about the drug life or whatever. Talk ain't nothin' if you've learned that it's all just talk, and most of it is an attempt to show that gangster life and drug life is stupid. It's when you don't learn to put things in perspective that's the problem.
I think there's more harm in teaching people to kill other people with the death penalty, or talking about how we're going to "take out Saddam" than some skinny-ass rapper talking about how tough he is.
When Presidents lie and commit genocide and children are told that these are people to be emulated that we have a problem.
I don't think rap is any more crap than any other form of diversion. Most rock and roll is about having a song with a great riff or a groovy beat. Very little of it adds all that much to the intelligence level of the world. It's entertainment. Much of it's made for kids and is about sex. No harm there. There's nothing anymore highbrow about opera over rap or Beethoven over P. Diddy. Some of it has a powerful message and some of it's just background noise.
I didn't say anything about the President wanting us to listen to rap, either. The point is not what the diversion is, or that the President is all that powerful. The point is that the people with the bucks decide to a great extent what the news is. Hell, they decide who's going to be President.
They decide to put important stuff on the back page and Princess Di on the front page. They own the newspapers and the TV stations. Again, not that two people don't ever go into a room and decide things, they do, but what we're talking about here are tendencies.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 05:36:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Can someone PLEASE explain why commericals,
''INFLUENCES PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR''? I don't understand.
You'll have to ask a psychologist why it works, but there's no doubt that for some reason, certain colors and designs on packaging of products makes people more likely to buy that product. Catchy jingles that stick in peoples' minds make it more likely that while browsing the isles at the grocery store, they will decide to give the product associated with that jingle a try.
And companies pay celebrity spokespeople millions to promote their products. Why? Because people are more likely to use that product because their favourite actor or actress says it's a great product. (Works in politics too. Rosie says vote for Gore. Rosie fans vote for Gore.)
Therefore I wouldn't think it's too much of a stretch to think that particularly succeptable people (i.e. teenagers/kids) will "try out" the behaviour that their favourite music "artist" seems to be saying is "cool". I think rap is a particular problem in this area because it's mostly about human interaction (having sex, killing people/cops, family problems, treating women like shit, etc.) whereas a lot of heavy metal has more of a fantasy element, or abstract nature to the lyrics.
But this is all just my opinion, I could be wrong...
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The NASA Vision:
To improve life here,
To extend life to there,
To find life beyond. |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 07:20:46 [Permalink]
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Wars and death penalties send a wrong message? Like what? That you can't be a terrorist and engage in WMD programs like Saddam? Or enforcing capital crimes?
How does law enforcement, including international law (in regards to Iraq) send a worse message than 'this is my block to sell crack on, tresspassers will be shot.'?
Ah right, the big bad government again.
Timeouts and crap don't work on kids, let alone maniacal dictators. Maybe Saddam just needs a hug, huh?
I'm about bored with your genocide assertion as well. Learn it's definition before you show your ignorance talking about it. There is a world of difference between enforcing UN resolutions and terms of Iraqi surrender, and genocide. Only the simple minded and anti-gov't conspiracy nuts make this connection. I've yet to hear a credible, responsible and informed person accuse Bush (or Clinton before him for that matter) of genocide. If it were so, the UN would have labelled the president as such. Especially when the UN and the US had it's little spat over Kosovo and we went with NATO instead. No, only those that have no inkling think the sanctions are GENOCIDE. Not nice, not holding hands and sharing a coke, not making it easy to live, but also not genocide.
Oh well, such is the fate of a country that starts wars it can't finish.
As for the topic at hand, if rap and gang violence were restricted to the inner city, I wouldn't care. They've been shooting themselves since the beginning. There are much larger issues at hand there that cause violence and gangs.
What bothers me is the move into the mainstream and the 'burbs. Why? two fold.
1) I live there. So it's of concern to me personally. I pity the shithead that hurts my daughter because they wanted to do a drive-by that day. They will pray for the police if I get ahold of them.
2) The gang problems in the 'burbs are the result of the music industry, not reality. While the gangs in the inner city are bad enough, at least they can point to socio-economic reasons for their behavior. It's no less illegal, but somewhat more understandable. Skinny kids from the 'burbs are just pretending. It's bullshit, which makes any gang crime they commit that much more galling. Like why the US gets much more upset when already rich CEOs feel the need to steal just a little more, than a broke dude doing a B&E. It's a visceral reaction.
Moreover, there is no socio-economic reasons for this new gang problem. It is the construct of the music industry trying to rake in money by selling children on a criminal lifestyle as being cool. The concept of being a badass carries the flaw that someone might actually call you on it.
The proliferation of these 'entry-level' gangs is a further problem as they become targets of real gangs for recruitment. Kids that just wanted to hang out on the corner and look cool find themselves wrapped up in real gangs, doing real crime.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 23:21:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
You'll have to ask a psychologist why it works, but there's no doubt that for some reason, certain colors and designs on packaging of products makes people more likely to buy that product. Catchy jingles that stick in peoples' minds make it more likely that while browsing the isles at the grocery store, they will decide to give the product associated with that jingle a try.
I'm going to go off on a tangent here. Red is used to promote hunger (ever notice McDonalds fry cups) anger and sex. Talk about an odd combo. Anyway, this is all stuff that is taught in advertising.
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And companies pay celebrity spokespeople millions to promote their products. Why? Because people are more likely to use that product because their favourite actor or actress says it's a great product. (Works in politics too. Rosie says vote for Gore. Rosie fans vote for Gore.)
You also have to consider that some people think they 'know' these actors and actresses so they are more likely to listen to them as a friend rather than a 'spokesperson'.
quote:
Therefore I wouldn't think it's too much of a stretch to think that particularly succeptable people (i.e. teenagers/kids) will "try out" the behaviour that their favourite music "artist" seems to be saying is "cool". I think rap is a particular problem in this area because it's mostly about human interaction (having sex, killing people/cops, family problems, treating women like shit, etc.) whereas a lot of heavy metal has more of a fantasy element, or abstract nature to the lyrics.
That and kids are trying to push there boundaries or even find out where they are and if there are any.
Hey, they said D&D was satanistic in the 80s too. And that us gamers were going to do silly things like kill each other and the people around us. They were talking about the kids who had killed another gamer because their character had been killed during a game. You almost have to consider that individual was unbalanced to begin.
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But this is all just my opinion, I could be wrong...
Not far off. For an interesting look, take a class in advertisement and design. You'd be surprised.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Archibald Stuart (1791) |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2002 : 12:48:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hey, they said D&D was satanistic in the 80s too. And that us gamers were going to do silly things like kill each other and the people around us. They were talking about the kids who had killed another gamer because their character had been killed during a game
--Sure there is a psychotic fringe in nearly any clique. But crime related to topics in heavy metal music (or most any other than rap) is nearly non-existant. There just hasn't been a huge outbreak of satanic sacrifices or such.
But gang violence is out of control in the US. The EMT's won't even enter Roxbury (part of greater Boston) without an escort anymore because the gang bangers would shoot a random by stander and then ambush the EMT's when they arrived. They took drugs, clean needles, anything they could sell. So the EMT's quit responding for the most part.
If you take a round in Roxbury, you might as well start walking to a hospital, the EMT's just ain't comin'. If they do it's an hour later when they can get a police escort.
I'm willing to even discount all gang activity in urban areas. Like I said, there's many more reasons than rap for gangs in the inner city.
But not in the 'burbs. The explosion of gangs and gang violence among the middle class isn't due to any factor beyond the music industry selling these kids on gangs being cool. But the dipshits take it seriously and kids die or rot in prisons.
The so-called satanic references in metal (or D&D for that matter) are fantasy. No one I knew took it very seriously. We didn't model our lives on satan.
Rap pushes it's pro-gang message to kids. They market it as 'real life' and the lifestyle as glamorous. Mtv runs constant rotation of the worst of rap. Teens take it as the truth, and one they want to emulate.
I wouldn't even bring it up if it weren't for the undeniable fact that rap, and the culture it represents, has a DIRECT impact on youth crime in the US.
Remember when astronauts, scientists, and elected officials used to be role-models. Every kid wanted to grow up and be in the Apollo program.
Now kids could care less about science. Their role-models are sports figures (who can't stay out of jail either) or actors (especially the quasi-gang type bad boy) or music 'artists', who also promote gangs.
If there wasn't a real effect on the youth of America, I'd have no bitch other than rap is simply talentless bullshit. I may hate rap, but I'll respect someone else's choice to enjoy it. But I am most definetly concerned about what it is doing to the country, especially since the problem has moved in next door. I don't live in the projects, and don't really care if they shoot each other to pieces there. But even the nice parks I take my kid to now have gangs that claim the area as turf.
What I'd like to do sometime is load up some of my patchwearing buddies. Angels, Sons of Silence, maybe get some Banditos to join in- and go show a street gang how much they 'own' any place when real bad asses show up.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2002 : 00:25:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
I wouldn't even bring it up if it weren't for the undeniable fact that rap, and the culture it represents, has a DIRECT impact on youth crime in the US.
Remember when astronauts, scientists, and elected officials used to be role-models. Every kid wanted to grow up and be in the Apollo program.
Yeah, I remember. Fortunately I have a kid who's roll models include, Carl Sagan, Phil Plait (yes Phil she still hangs out at your page, but I think she's intimidated about posting there right now), Stephen Hawking, and Vic Stenger.
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Now kids could care less about science. Their role-models are sports figures (who can't stay out of jail either) or actors (especially the quasi-gang type bad boy) or music 'artists', who also promote gangs.
How much of this is also based on they don't have a good roll model at home? How many of these kids have parents that set any type of limit or boundary? Where are these kids to turn for roll models if there is nothing offered for modeling at home? It's not just the industry but an environment where kids are out of sync and forgotten or ignored.
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If there wasn't a real effect on the youth of America, I'd have no bitch other than rap is simply talentless bullshit. I may hate rap, but I'll respect someone else's choice to enjoy it.
Agreed.
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But I am most definetly concerned about what it is doing to the country, especially since the problem has moved in next door. I don't live in the projects, and don't really care if they shoot each other to pieces there. But even the nice parks I take my kid to now have gangs that claim the area as turf.
Tell me about it. In my area, its the asian gangs. I worry about my kid too.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Archibald Stuart (1791) |
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