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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2002 : 18:45:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'll continue to pray that before I shuffle off this mortal coil the privilege of putting my fist into your arrogant fat head.
Sorry, darwin alogos, but that's not a proper sentence. Why not try it again?
Perhaps you're over-reaching. Maybe you should try very, very short sentences at first. You know, sentences like: "You are mean." or "I am smart." or "See Jane run.", and then work up to sentences of 4, 5, or even 6 words in length. Go ahead - give it a try.
In the meantime, your initial statement:quote:
It seems a lot hangs on the answer to this question;some say the NT was influenced by pagan myths.But this couldn't be if the writers were orthodox Jews.
is what's called a non sequitur, i.e., it's just plain stupid.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 21:47:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Damn you Slater, I really don't think they were Orthodox Jews, and that's precisely the type of detail I would expect you to screw up.
Oh, didn't you know? Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel were Orthodox Jews who thought outside the phylactery.
(You've no idea how long I've been trying to work that joke in somewhere)
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 05:37:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]
Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no god.
Is this Psalmist in danger of hell fire? Kind of a confusing rule book
for living.
Just a guess but perhaps He's giving FOOL'S like you,Slater,and RD something to ponder for eternity? 
So, according to your rule book, it seems that you too are in danger of hell file.
To be perfectly clear with my point you have just called Slater, RD, and myself FOOL'S. Now see Mt 5:22. Being tied to the words of Jesus this should be of great concern to you. Or do you consider yourself beyond the reproach of Jesus.
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 09:14:00 [Permalink]
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Non-Sequitur
The term non sequitur literally means "it does not follow". In this section we describe fallacies which occur as a consequence of invalid arguments. The following fallacies are non sequiturs:
Affirming the Consequent
Denying the Antecedent
Inconsistency
25 May 1995
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Educators
Stephen Downes Guide to the Logical Fallacies
Copyright © Stephen Downes, 1995-2002
stephen.downes@ualberta.ca Now since I've demonstrated that "Orthodox Jewish Theology" was,among other things,extremely monotheistic which by LOGICAL DEFINITION precludes any combining of NT Theology with the pagan environment around them(Greek,Roman).These facts are easily seen by just a sunday school knowledge of the NT(Mt.22:32-40).In Acts 14:8-18 we see how after Paul performs a healing the local Priest(of Temple of Zeus) wants to sacrifice to both Paul and Barnabas(thinking they were Zues and Hermes)but Paul and Barnabas respond,like the good "Orthodox Jews" that they were, to this blasphemy tearing their garments and saying"Men why are doing these things?We also are men with the same nature as you,and PREACH TO YOU THAT YOU SHOULD TURN FROM THESE VAIN THINGS TO THE LIVING GOD,WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND EARTH,THE SEA,AND ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE IN THEM,..." [emp.mine].As anyone can see from the above text these men were not going to be influenced by any form of paganism(in fact they called the pagans to repent of it).Thus,RD is out of his pea-brained mind(a terrible thing to waste)to imply that my original statement "Was the NT...."has no logical connection to what the NT writer's Theology would be influenced by. 
Edited by - darwin alogos on 10/04/2002 09:21:06 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 09:15:52 [Permalink]
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Perhaps you're over-reaching. Maybe you should try very, very short sentences at first. You know, sentences like: "You are mean." or "I am smart." or "See Jane run.", and then work up to sentences of 4, 5, or even 6 words in length. Go ahead - give it a tr [MORE SMOKE RD!
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 10:10:26 [Permalink]
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So, according to your rule book, it seems that you too are in danger of hell file.
To be perfectly clear with my point you have just called Slater, RD, and myself FOOL'S. Now see Mt 5:22. Being tied to the words of Jesus this should be of great concern to you. Or do you consider yourself beyond the reproach of Jesus.
I'll take it for granted that you(unlike Slater and RD)are sincere in your question(along with an apology for including you along with those two bozo's).What your asking is a question answered by our hermeneutical approach toward the NT text.First,the logical context demonstrates that Jesus is contrasting His Authority over the OT, The Son of Man,this is seen by the phrase "You have heard it was said to the people long ago...[fill in the blank]".In this case "murder".Another hermeneutical point for the answer to your question is while the OT passage dealt the outward visible action(i.e."murder") Jesus is making and even more RADICAL interpretation to the command to include the inner invisible attitude of the heart(by the way this is VERY EGOCENTRIC action for aMarginal Jewto do).So to answer your question based on the above information is- No.Neither the Psalmist or I are in danger of "Hell fire" for making a factual report concerning an actual state of affairs(i.e.Slater,and RD),are "acting very foolishly inregards to understanding the origin of the NT and its Theology. Neither I nor the Psalmist are sitting in a place where "our testimony" is going to result in either of them being put to death,or "murdered",and the text do not contradict in any way.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 10:29:48 [Permalink]
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… "Orthodox Jewish Theology" was,among other things,extremely monotheistic
Monotheism, meaning one god. One, singular, as in Yahweh.
which by LOGICAL DEFINITION precludes any combining of NT Theology with the pagan environment
Pagan, disrespectful term meaning "country bumpkin," or "hillbilly."
Designates Polytheism, meaning multiple gods. Multiple, plural, as in Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The is no mention of the name Yahweh in the NT. See Zeus, Dionysus and Dionyus decending into Hades to free the spirit of his mother and make her a sacred ghost/goddess.
just a sunday school knowledge of the NT… Acts
Shall we try Acts 9 ? Saul is stomping alone the road to Damascus on his way to kick some Christian butt. He mistakenly thinks that the Christians are blasphemers and are involved in terrible things, which they are not. The god Jesus magically appears to him and says "I am Jesus whom thou persecutist it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Saul has an epiphany and realized that Jesus is the true god.
Or we could try Saturday night theater knowledge of Euripides (playwright from 5th Cent BCE) in this case his The Bacchae somewhere around line 936. We find Pentheus stomping along the road near Damascus on his way to kick some Dionysian butt. He mistakenly thinks that the Bacchae are blasphemers and are involved in terrible things, which they are not. The god Dionysus magically appears to him and says that it is "better to yield him prayer and sacrifice than to kick against the pricks, since Dionyse is God, and thou but mortal." Pentheus has an epiphany before we go to Act III.
There's a reason Paul never mentions his own dramatic conversion…he wasn't a big theater goer.
Paul and Barnabas respond,like the good "Orthodox Jews" that they were,
How could they be Orthodox Jews so long before there were Orthodox Jews? Or have Apologetics redefined what an Orthodox Jew is?
If Paul and Barnabus are saying that Jesus was only the Messiah then you can claim they were behaving like "good Jews." However if they are claiming that Jesus is god, one part of a triune deity then they are preaching Hellenism.
Sunday school doesn't seem to be the place to go to learn about Judaism. You only find yourself kicking against the pricks there.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 10:55:21 [Permalink]
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Hermeneutics was originally the interperting of vague messages sent from the Olympian Gods to mortals via the Gods' messenger Hermes.
From it's classical beginings as a business at Delphi it has always meant making what the gods say fit with what you want to hear.
Once again the xians don't even bother to get rid of the pagan gods name.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 11:28:01 [Permalink]
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And while I'm at it here's a list from the Skeptics Annotated bible
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/intolerance.html
of just some of the anti-Semitism in Acts
Does this sound like it was written by Jews?
Peter blames the Jews for the death of Jesus. Acts:3:14-15
Peter wrongly claims that Dt.18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all nonchristians) must be killed. Acts:3:23
Once again, Peter accuses the Jews of murdering Jesus. Acts:5:30
Stephen blames the Jews for persecuting the prophets and murdering Jesus. Acts:7:51-52
After Saul "increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews," the "Jews took counsel to kill him." Acts:9:22-23
The Jews are again blamed for the death of Jesus. Acts:10:39
Herod beheads James the brother of John and imprisons Peter "because he saw it pleased the Jews." Acts:12:1-3
The Jews of Antioch, after seeing Paul's success in preaching, were envious and blasphemed God. Paul then declares them to be "unworthy of everlasting life." Acts:13:45-46
Once again "the Jews stirred up" trouble and "raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts." Acts:13:50
"The unbelieving Jews" stir up trouble again for Paul and incite the people to try to stone him to death. Acts:14:2-5
In Thesssalonica, "the Jews which believed not, moved with envy" stir up trouble for Paul and his friends. Acts:17:5
The Jews hate the word of God and are always just stirring up trouble. Acts:17:13
"And when they [the Jews of Corinth] opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he [Paul] shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads." (Have a nice day?) Acts:18:6
"The Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat." Acts:18:12
Poor Paul complains, once again, of being mistreated by "the Jews." Acts:20:19
The Jews, once again, incite the people to kill poor old Paul Acts:21:27, 31
The Jews form a grand conspiracy to kill Paul. They vow not to eat until the job is done. Acts:23:12-15
Claudius saves Paul from being killed by the Jews. Acts:23:27
Those pesky Jews caught Paul and and tried to kill him. But he got away. Darn! Acts:26:21
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled
Edited by - slater on 10/04/2002 11:30:17 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 12:16:39 [Permalink]
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Now Kadmos has given his honor and power to Pentheus, his daughter's son, [45] who fights against the gods as far as I am concerned and drives me away from sacrifices, and in his prayers makes no mention of me, for which I will show him and all the Thebans that I was born a god. And when I have set matters here right, I will move on to another land, [50] revealing myself. But if ever the city of Thebes should in anger seek to drive the the Bacchae down from the mountains with arms, I, the general of the Maenads, will join battle with them. On which account I have changed my form to a mortal one and altered my shape into the nature of a man. [55] But, you women who have left Tmolus, the bulwark of Lydia, my sacred band, whom I have brought from among the barbarians as assistants and companions to me, take your drums, native instruments of the city of the Phrygians, the invention of mother Rhea and myself, [60] and going about this palace of Pentheus beat them, so that Kadmos' city may see. I myself will go to the folds of Kithairon, where the Bacchae are, to share in their dances.
just a sunday school knowledge of the NT… Acts
Shall we try Acts 9 ? Saul is stomping alone the road to Damascus on his way to kick some Christian butt. He mistakenly thinks that the Christians are blasphemers and are involved in terrible things, which they are not. The god Jesus magically appears to him and says "I am Jesus whom thou persecutist it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Saul has an epiphany and realized that Jesus is the true god.
Or we could try Saturday night theater knowledge of Euripides (playwright from 5th Cent BCE) in this case his The Bacchae somewhere around line 936. We find Pentheus stomping along the road near Damascus on his way to kick some Dionysian butt. He mistakenly thinks that the Bacchae are blasphemers and are involved in terrible things, which they are not. The god Dionysus magically appears to him and says that it is "better to yield him prayer and sacrifice than to kick against the pricks, since Dionyse is God, and thou but mortal." Pentheus has an epiphany before we go to Act III.
Slater your ability to confound the obvious is astounding.First, The Bacchae is like you said[ b]A PLAY!Secondly,Paul as you stated was out to stop what he considered a dangerous heresy,"For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism,how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation,being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers."(Gal.1:14,15).Thirdly,the obvious comparison is while one,(a play)is a merely fictionaland is made to be taken as such,the other,however,is reporting a fact.Namely,"He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith[ the body of doctrine concerning Jesus] which he once tried to destroy"(Gal.1:23).The problem you continually want to willfully remain ignorant of,is that as the above Galatians text states clearly,is Paul was as "ORTHODOX" a Jew as you could be(I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation,being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers."(Gal.1:14,15),He reversed his former opinion of Jesus and Christianty because Jesus appeared to him RAISED FROM THE DEAD.Thus,providing him with EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE[/b] to radically alter his theoloical views.
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 12:42:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hey DA, I just wanted you to know there was some smack talking going on in the chat room last night and your name might have been mentioned. I assure you I don't approve of such practices and I did everything I could not to participate, I mean to prevent further nastiness. Now the least you could do for me is post a coherent argument.
We move to fictional classroom,the subject history 101. Teacher: "Now class does anyone want to respond to PhD's request to present 'a coherent argument' for DA's view?" "Logia,I see your hand up,care to take a stab?" LOGIA: "Sure teach.""Its really not that hard,as DA stated many pages ago[on Did J/C Exist?pt1 I think] if you take the NORMAL CANONS OF HISTORIC RESEARCH AS YOU WOULD TO ANY OTHER EVENT and apply them to the NT documents you will find they stand the test of historical inquiry abundantly well."TEACHER: "Very good we will continue this subject at a later time."
Edited by - darwin alogos on 10/04/2002 21:14:41 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 13:38:53 [Permalink]
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First, The Bacchae is like you said A PLAY!
That's a different translation you are using from the one I quoted, but it seems pretty good from what I can see. You are quoting some plot exposition from the very beginning and not the climatic scene I mentioned
Secondly,Paul as you stated was out to stop what he considered a dangerous heresy,
Just like Pentheus was doing in the Bacchae.
" Pentheus; who on my (Dionysus) body hath begun
A war with God. He thrusteth me away
From due drink-offering, and, when men pray,
My name entreats not. Therefore on his own
Head and his people's shall my power be shown."
As compared to
" For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism,how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it"
You'll notice that Saul was one of those evil killer Jews who blindly slaughtered innocent Christians. By the time you finished reading Acts you realize that the Roman's were only doing gods will to destroy Israel.
Thirdly,the obvious comparison is while one,(a play)is a merely fictionaland is made to be taken as such,the other,however,is reporting a fact.
And yet the fiction is 500 years older than the same "fact.'
If somebody told you that last week their father's ghost appeared to them on the battlements and told them that their Uncle and Lady Mother poured poison in Dad's ear while he slept in the garden--would you buy it? Or would you say "hey, that's from the first act of Hamlet, you can't fool me"?
Do you want us to believe that this is magical life immitating surrealistic art?
Or did the ressurected Jesus who by this time had assended bodily into the wild blue yonder, came back in for a landing and took in a show. Did He leave humming show tunes and repeating the dialogue to his buddy Saul?
Galatians text states clearly,is Paul was as "ORTHODOX" a Jew
Chapter and verse please. Gal.1:14,15 doesn't say he was an Orthodox Jew because Orthodox Jews are something quite specific that didn't exist at that time.
He reversed his former opinion of Jesus and Christianty because Jesus appeared to him
So did Petheus when he saw Dionysus
RAISED FROM THE DEAD.
The very name Dionysus means he who was born twice. The list of gods who died and were raised from the dead is as long as your arm
Thus,providing him with EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE to radically alter his theoloical views.
Thus retelling the plot and some of the dialogue of a popular play . There is nothing empirical here except our pre-existing copy of Euripides, which shows Acts to be a second-rate literary rip off, and not history.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled
Edited by - slater on 10/04/2002 13:54:45 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 13:50:17 [Permalink]
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NORMAL CANNONS OF HISTORIC RESEARCH AS YOU WOULD TO ANY OTHER EVENT and apply them to the NT documents you will find they stand the test of historical inquiry abundantly well.
First a cannon is a large mounted gun.
Secondly a canon is a body of church law, not a method of historic research
Thirdly the NT is not proof of an historic Jesus by any stretch of the imagination.
Fourthly your writing is not coherent as was requested
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 21:37:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
ain Entry: [1]can·on
Pronunciation: 'ka-n&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Latin, ruler, rule, model, standard, from Greek kanOn
Date: before 12th century
1 a : a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council b : a provision of canon law
2 : [Middle English, prob. from Old French, from Late Latin, from Latin, model] : the most solemn and unvarying part of the Mass including the consecration of the bread and wine
3 : [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>
4 a : an accepted principle or rule b : a criterion or standard of judgment c : a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms
5 : [Late Greek kanOn, from Greek, model] : a contrapuntal musical composition in two or more voice parts in which the melody is imitated exactly and completely by the successive voices though not always at the same pitch
synonym see LAW
Pronunciation Key
© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy
As usual Slater you only see what you want to see:Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Latin, ruler, rule, model, standard, from Greek kanOn. Note how the definition states "rule,model" its in that sense that I used it and its perfectly coherent.To bad we can't say the same about your dribble about Paul imitating an Euripides play.Do you really believe that crap you wrote?If so all kidding aside you really need to seek some serious psychiatric help.
Edited by - darwin alogos on 10/04/2002 21:38:53 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 23:02:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
As usual Slater you only see what you want to see:Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Latin, ruler, rule, model, standard, from Greek kanOn. Note how the definition states "rule,model" its in that sense that I used it and its perfectly coherent.
I didn't realize that you were writing in late Latin. Or is c•a•n•n•o•n the middle English spelling?
All kidding aside can a grown man actually believe in fairtales as you claim that you do? Can a human beings brain be so small and yet still produce enough electricity to allow you press the keys on your key board?
This is a joke right? You couldn't possible be as dim as you pretend. You really had us going. You couldn't possibly believe that a Euripides play came to life, kicking pricks and all.
How do you figure that normal cannons of research include drawing existential conclusions without any evidence what so ever?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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