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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 10/18/2002 : 13:15:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
. You know that the only way for that story with that dialogue to get there is for the author of Acts to have copied a pagan myth and claimed it was Jesus in the myth. Just like the rest of the NT stories, only this time we know not only the myth but the actual copy of the myth it was stolen from.
In Slater's sick world any similarity = copying So G. Washington's crossing the Delaware is OBVIOUSLY a copying of Ceasar's crossing of the Rubicon.Both were Generals,both were in some sense fathers of their own countries.It has to be with Slaterian logic!
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2002 : 14:01:58 [Permalink]
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DA had already given Slater this info,however since Slater is prone to delusions and conspiracies here it is again:
Okay, let's go over this again because you are too stupid to understand.
The reason I put the word ORTHODOX in all caps was because I was stressing it. You insist that ORTHODOX Jews wrote the NT. Orthodox Jews are Hasidic Jews. There were no Hasidim when the NT was written.
Slater's paranioia knows no bounds:
I have no paranoia, I'm following Jesus' instruction about not suffering a fool gladly.
He refuses to admit the obvious that the simple phrase"to kick against the pricks" is proverbial:These words reflect a proverbial way of speaking, attested in SEVERAL Classical Greek writers,and especially Euripides,Bacchae,794f...,But the PROVERB was also known in Judaism(Psalms of Solomon 16:4),and Philo...( Decal.87).(taken from I.Howard Marshall's,THE ACTS OF THE APOSTELS,Wm.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.p.395 emph. mine).
The phrase wasn't proverbial when Euripides wrote it, he was the author.
Nor is it "the simple phrase" that was stolen since Acts retells the entire scene from the Bacchae placing the phrase in exactly the same spot and in exactly the same context as the classic Greek original. Two resurrected gods stop two protagonists on two roads as they head off to do harm to both the gods groups of worshipers and both gods say exactly the same thing to both bad guys.
This thread is finished. The NT is based on pagan myths. Here's one of the myths and the popular play that told it's dialogue.
And as for the general historical reliability of the Book of Acts I've already given you this quote from Freeman twice(but maybe the proverbial 3rd time will be the charm)
Stick your fingers in your ears and go "La, la, la," all you like the fiction is exposed.
Luke,an educated Greek,
1) You don't know that there was a Luke. 2) No one knows if the author of "Luke" was a man or a woman, but modern scholars lean towards a woman. 3) Acts isn't written in proper Greek.
he was writing within the historical traditions,established by Thucydides and may have been present at some the events he records....
This "tradition" is to include the plots from popular novels. Which is why you find shipwrecks, cannibal princesses, pirate kings and sections of Euripides. This tradition cares nothing for historical accuracy.
he shows a DETAILED KNOWLEDGE OF ROMAN WORLD.
Big F**king deal! Is anybody claiming this novel came from China or South America?
His account of Paul's shipwreck on the way to Rome, for instance,is a VALUABLE PIECE OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE IN ITS OWN RIGHT....
Total nonsense, it's evidence of nothing.
The doings of Paul and the early Christians are WELL DOCUMENTED IN THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES,composed probably in the 60'sAD,as a sequel to his gospel Luke.
And the doings of Tarzan and the apes were well documented by Edgar Rice Burroughs. It's called a novel.
p.s. Freeman is Just a Classical Historian not a Christian
Why do you keep doing that? It's disgusting. How do you know Freeman's religion?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2002 : 14:25:05 [Permalink]
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In Slater's sick world any similarity = copying So G. Washington's crossing the Delaware is OBVIOUSLY a copying of Ceasar's crossing of the Rubicon.Both were Generals,both were in some sense fathers of their own countries.It has to be with Slaterian logic!
I see, so you are saying that Dionysus was real. And his stopping Pentheus was one of those historic things that all the historic gods did every now and then. Nothing stranger here then troops crossing a river.
So you aren't a Christian after all.
Then let me tell you about my summer vacation when I went down to South America and found a gold idol in a temple. Unfortunately the temple was booby-trapped and I had to run for it. Pedro, a local thug, swung across a pit on my bull-whip and then swiped the idol. Lucky for me a booby-trap got him and I retrieved the golden statue. But just I thought I had it made a giant, perfectly round, boulder came crashing at me. To make a long story short, I flew off with my friend Jock in his seaplane and found his pet snake Reggie in the seat with me. "I hate snakes Jock, I hate'm" I called proverbially.
By Dumb bell Alogs-ian logic you would have to believe this cock and bull story.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2003 : 09:42:18 [Permalink]
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Here's a Forum Boron. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2003 : 09:57:23 [Permalink]
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Boron: quote:
darwin alogos: First,you have not taken into account the fact that the early church was for the most part Jewish.
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This is not a fact. It is, in fact, the subject of much debate in the Religion Forum. Do you have any references other than the bible that make this claim? If so, we can continue this discussion in a new thread.
DA: Well you have the same sources such as Josephus,Tacticus,Early Church Fathers,and antagonistic Jewish writers. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/12/2003 09:58:56 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2003 : 10:07:53 [Permalink]
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Third there are many Messianic Jews today who believe Jesus is their Messiah.
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Wouldn't that make them Christians? Boron I'll let them answer that: quote:
Evidence of the Jewish Background
of the Early Church
by Ron Moseley, PH.D.
Contrary to what some believe, the first fifteen bishops of the original Church at Jerusalem were Jewish. In his Ecclesiastical History, Eusebius tells us that "the church at Jerusalem, at first formed of the circumcision, came later to be formed of Gentile Christians, and the whole church under them, consisted of faithful Hebrews who continued from the time of the apostles, until the siege of Jerusalem." l
In his second-century historical work, Hegesippus describes the rivalry between a man named Thebouthis and others, seeking the position of bishop after the death of James, who was said to be the first pastor at Jerusalem.2 According to Hegesippus, the Hebrew Christians finally chose Simeon, who was a cousin of the Lord, to succeed James. Epiphanius lists the remaining thirteen Jewish pastors of the Jerusalem Church as Justus, Zaccheus, Tobias, Benjamin, John, Mathias, Philip, Seneca, Justus, Levi, Ephrem, Joseph, and Jude, completing the historical record all the way up to the Bar Kochba Revolt (A.D. 132-135).3 These Jewish relatives of Jesus who led the early Church were called Desposynoi, meaning "heirs," and were often persecuted because of their Davidic lineage and their relationship to the Messiah.
During the reign of Hadrian (A.D. 117-138), the Jewish nation was crushed in what came to be called the Second Jewish War. Jerusalem was renamed Aelia Capitolina by the Romans, and Jews were forbidden to enter the city for one hundred years. As these dramatic events were unfolding, many of the Hebrew Christians fled to the mountains of Pella, located in present-day Jordan, in obedience to Christ's instruction found in Matthew 24:16. This left only Gentile believers in control of the Church for the first time, and they quickly appointed a man named Mark as Jerusalem's first non-Jewish pastor.4, 5 According to Baring Gould's history, the community of believers in exile, led by James and Simeon, was still clinging tightly to the old traditions while crouched at Pella.6
The Influence of the Synagogue on the Organizational Structure of the Church
Since the Hebrew Christians were not completely removed from Jerusalem until well into the second century, for its first one hundred years the Church remained very much a part of first-century Judaism, and its leaders stayed involved in many Jewish affairs. There was no immediate split from the synagogue, as evidenced by Jesus' warning that some synagogues would punish His followers for preaching a different brand of Judaism (Matthew 10:17). We know that this scourging by synagogue leaders was not an abnormal part of normative Judaism since it is mentioned a number of times in early rabbinical literature.7
The structure of the local synagogues was carried over directly into the structure of the early Church. A president, deacons, a preceptor (song leader), and teachers can all be found in both the synagogue and the early Church. We know from early sources that there were between 394 and 480 synagogues in Jerusalem during the first century, one being located within the precincts of the Temple itself.8 This is undoubtedly why the early pattern of the Church had its origins in the Jewish synagogue. Note the following similarities between the ancient synagogue and the early Church.
The principal leader of a synagogue was the nasi or president. In the Christian congregation, the leaders were still called president rather than pastor, as late as A.D. 150, by such non-Jewish writers as Justin Martyr.9 In the synagogue structure, three of t |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/12/2003 10:11:57 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2003 : 12:18:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Third there are many Messianic Jews today who believe Jesus is their Messiah.quote:
Boron wrote:
Wouldn't that make them Christians?
Boron I'll let them answer that: ...
Cut the crap. As implied by Boron, the simple answer is "Yes", hence Born-Again Moseley's Preaching Itinerary.
Parenthetically, DA, what Moseley thought Eusebius thought Hegesippus thought 2nd century CE Judeo-Christians thought has absolutely nothing to do with: - whether or not today's "messianic jews" are Christian, or
- whether or not "the new testament [was] writen [sic] by orthodox jews"
Once again you prove yourself to be a pathetic idiot childishly pleased with his new-found ability to cut-and-paste. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2003 : 16:38:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Third there are many Messianic Jews today who believe Jesus is their Messiah.quote:
Boron wrote:
Wouldn't that make them Christians?
Boron I'll let them answer that: ...
Cut the crap. As implied by Boron, the simple answer is "Yes
The people who became xians when they started following the Christ, were Jews. If they were not 'real' Jews in the 1st place they were 'born again' Jews who followed Jesus. All those people who stem from that One god religion are Jews.
Funny, as I'm typing this, I'm watching the history of the Jews on PBS right now. Only because there's not much else on. I don't care about Jews, but the history part is interesting.
My opinion is that the Jews have caused the problems in the world because of that stupid belief in one god that became popular back all those many years ago and evolved into all the various groups of today.
The Jews who belive a Christ has come may be xians BUT all xians ARE Jews. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 04:06:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
The people who became xians when they started following the Christ, were Jews.
Except for those who weren't.
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
... all xians ARE Jews.
That statement is plain stupid. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 07:48:10 [Permalink]
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To C[onfused]Atheist Since 1st& 2nd century Jewish believers in Jesus as their Messiah were a just a little bit closer to the historic subject matter I'lld have to disagree with pathetic attempt at a rebuttal |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 10:24:49 [Permalink]
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| What 1st & 2nd CE Jewish believers in Jesus? What historic event? There was no historic Jesus that we have any record of. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 23:00:42 [Permalink]
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Slater: quote:
What 1st & 2nd CE Jewish believers in Jesus? What historic event? There was no historic Jesus that we have any record of.
Slater you had your chance to present your case for the non-existence of Jesus and failed! So please try and growup and think of some new things to say.  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 01:32:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
... all xians ARE Jews.
That statement is plain stupid.
You don't know what you are talking about. And if you did have an argument against what I said you should use it. Sounds to me as if you are stupid for saying what you did. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 01:37:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Slater you had your chance to present your case for the non-existence of Jesus and failed! So please try and growup and think of some new things to say.
Not really!
Slater made several interesting points and presented interesting information, which made me more skeptical of a historic Jesus.
You could perhaps convince me of his existence if you.
* Address his points.
* Write coherent.
* Present trustworthy evidence, or show why questionable accounts should be trusted.
* Drop the insults.
* Show some reading comprehension.
* Demonstrate some understanding of the word evidence.
* Stop pasting large articles.
Until then reading your post are just a waste of time and your opinion on any subject is of no value to me.
(Edited to correct quote) |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 01/14/2003 01:42:45 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 08:54:08 [Permalink]
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Starman: quote:
Address his points
You got to be kidding To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/14/2003 08:56:59 |
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