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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
 Posted - 09/18/2002 : 09:31:32
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Senior Ex-President Bush stated recently (CNN.com/Inside Politics)that he had nothing but hatred for Saddam and that he was a "brute". If the vitriol he showed Paula Zahn was shown over and over again to Geo W then it suddenly makes sense why he seems so bent on taking us to war.
Saddam is a threat but even after 9/11/01 (which in my opinion is not his doing and a horrific occurance perpetrated by a few over zealous fanatics)but he is not the boogieman Americans seems to need. We lost the Communists, the Nazi's and our other nightmares and without an outside adversary to blame our troubles on we have to take responsibility for our own problems and misdeeds.
Saddam may be cooking up something horrible and he should be willing to submit to an INTERNATIONAL inspection but in his attempts to prove that he is not Bush Lite and to do what his father could not Geo W seems willing to send men into the horror of war and to their deaths. The Middle East will jump into war because we pushed them not because of a petty tyrant in their midsts.
If Southeast Asia did not turn out to be the Domino Affect we were told it would the Middle East will. Everyone has a score to settle in that part of the world where they do not have Nintendo games to take their aggressions out on so they will settle every score they can remember and their memories are very long.
Whether we think we are the bad guys or not they do and every act we make against them will come back on us with triple the fury. I hope we can get out of this without catastrophic aftershocks but that is not possible. Before we let one petty tyrant take us to the edge lets really think about what we doing. Once done it can't be taken back.
I know this won't be a popular opinion and to tell the truth I probably won't have time to get back here to read the answers but I myself and the majority of the people of the world just want to do a good days work, come home, love our families and have goverments that are concerned about how to make our lives better not waste time and money hating and blaming each other.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission!
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2002 : 10:50:12 [Permalink]
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Yeah Saddam is such a sweety. He's letting the inspectors back in so everything is just hunky dorry.
Since for 9/11 we all bitched and moaned that intelligence failures should never have happened and cost thousands of American lives why don't we just stick our heads up our own butts and ignore what our intelligence is telling us about Saddam now.
That way maybe he'll like us better.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2002 : 16:38:02 [Permalink]
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I have no doubt that Saddam is trying to obtain weapons of mass destruction and will continue to do so even if he "allows" UN weapons inspectors back into Iraq. The question is would such weapons be a threat to the U.S.? My guess it that they would not. Saddam is primarily interested in Saddam. We have a lot more weapons of mass destruction than he ever will. If he were to use a weapon of this sort against us or give one to those who would, he knows it would be the end of him. And while he may not possess a conscience, he does possess a healthy survival instinct.
I would cry no tears for Saddam if a smart bomb landed on him tomorrow. But I don't like the precedent of a preemptive war and I don't like the idea of a large number of Iraqui and possibly American citizens being sacrificed in this endeavor. My biggest problem with Dessert Storm was that after killing thousands of Iraqui citizens, we allowed the one Iraqui who's death would have served a useful purpose to not only live but stay in power. But having blown the opportunity then, I am not sure we should try to correct it 10 years after the fact.
Finally, I should note that the biggest threat to America isn't Iraq - it's the house of Saud. Saudia Arabia's second biggest export after oil is Islamic fundamentalism and terrorists. None of the terrorists involved in 9/11 were from Iraq. The vast majority were from Saudi Arabia. So is Osama Bin Asshole. I don't think this is really an accident. If it were up to me, I would remove U.S. troops from Saudi Arabia, lift the sanctions against Iraq, and let the Saudis deal with Saddam themselves. They truely deserve each other.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2002 : 00:52:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
If Southeast Asia did not turn out to be the Domino Affect we were told it would the Middle East will.
Don't forget the Russians. Our lovely government tried to scare us with propaganda against them too.quote:
Everyone has a score to settle in that part of the world where they do not have Nintendo games to take their aggressions out on so they will settle every score they can remember and their memories are very long.
Whether we think we are the bad guys or not they do and every act we make against them will come back on us with triple the fury. I hope we can get out of this without catastrophic aftershocks but that is not possible. Before we let one petty tyrant take us to the edge lets really think about what we doing. Once done it can't be taken back.
Isn't all this mess the fault of the USA? Sticking it's nose everywhere, trying to control everything.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2002 : 08:01:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Don't forget the Russians. Our lovely government tried to scare us with propaganda against them too.
Yeah those Russians were completely harmless. "We will bury you!!!" actually meant that they wanted to have a picnic at the beach and bury us in the sand like Franky and Annette.
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Isn't all this mess the fault of the USA? Sticking it's nose everywhere, trying to control everything.
What other possible explaination could there be? Why don't we become isolationist again-it worked out so well the last couple of times we tried it. Better yet why don't we give up the 21 st century altogether and embrace Islam. We could roll on our backs like the dogs we are and submit to these nice people.
Or maybe you could grow a back bone instead.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2002 : 22:37:05 [Permalink]
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We accuse other countries of PROPAGANDA while America is a master at it. The American media is thought of as Freedom of the Press but info leaks are as likely to come from goverment insdiers to get us believe what the goverment wants as it is to bring out hidden info.
If the Middle Eastern peoples hate us because of lies they have been told about us then what we know and like or dislike about them comes from Propoganda on our side. As it has been said "History is Written by the Winner," Saddam would be a fool to try anything against us and he may well be a fool but what he is right now is the the center of attention. Something an Egomaniac like him loves.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2002 : 23:07:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
We accuse other countries of PROPAGANDA while America is a master at it. The American media is thought of as Freedom of the Press but info leaks are as likely to come from goverment insdiers to get us believe what the goverment wants as it is to bring out hidden info.
Any government or group can use propoganda effectively to convey their point. However, it is easier to look to he who has what you do not or is different and blame him for your woes instead of looking to yourself. As with all things, propoganda is not problem, rather the looking for someone upon whom to place your problems other than yourself. Yes, it cuts both ways.
quote:
If the Middle Eastern peoples hate us because of lies they have been told about us then what we know and like or dislike about them comes from Propoganda on our side. As it has been said "History is Written by the Winner," Saddam would be a fool to try anything against us and he may well be a fool but what he is right now is the the center of attention. Something an Egomaniac like him loves.
Can it not also come from a sense of outrage over some of the atrocities committed in the name of religion or inequalities supported by the government? If a real threat exists are we to sit back and await another Sept 11? If there is a way for us to prevent the deaths of thousands, should we not do so? The problem is, the general populace of the US does not nor will it have the same information the government has. Begin with the understanding that our knowledge of the situation is limited. Whatever happens in the situation, people will probably die, whether citizens of the US or citizens of whatever other country.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Archibald Stuart (1791) |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 01:21:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Better yet why don't we give up the 21 st century altogether and embrace Islam. We could roll on our backs like the dogs we are and submit to these nice people.
Yeah, yeah! I know, the sky is falling.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 01:25:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
The problem is, the general populace of the US does not nor will it have the same information the government has. Begin with the understanding that our knowledge of the situation is limited.
Agreed, but....after the facts, we found out many times the government (our government) wasn't telling the truth. I trust them, little.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 03:41:49 [Permalink]
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Why don't we back a bunch of religious fundamentalists who, for no good reason, kill thousands of people? Oh. You did that.
quote:
Better yet why don't we give up the 21 st century altogether and embrace Islam. We could roll on our backs like the dogs we are and submit to these nice people.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 09/21/2002 04:02:14 |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 10:45:01 [Permalink]
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Propaganda? Yeah right.
First, propaganda is created when the government owns the press. Ours does not. When the only thing you hear is the government's point of view, that's propaganda.
Our press is not controlled by the government (despite the conspiracy theorists) and is in fact VERY critical of the Fed. Pirahnna are more cultured than the press corps when the wiff of blood (or scandal) is present. No other country in the world has such a free media market. The media in this country is personally responsible for the fall of no shortage of officials. The fact that there was even a debate about Iraq shows that the press is not parrotting the fed.
The media has even entertained frauds like Scott Ritter opposing the US. I see Tom Dashle on CNN nightly urging negotiations.
The media in this country may be alot of things, but a puppet of the government, it is not.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 10:49:46 [Permalink]
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The 'media' in this country includes, in an ever increasing manner, the Internet. Which includes Skeptic Friends. So unless you consider yourself a government stooge.....
Having propaganda also means suppression of free media. The fact that these debates can take place on SFN is a strong indication that the US isn't interested in controlling free thought.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 10:53:25 [Permalink]
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The finest propaganda system ever devised. Hitler himself (well, actually it was Goebbels, wasn't it?) fashioned his system after the U.S. system and of course it's only gotten much better since.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 09/21/2002 10:54:20 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 11:08:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yeah, yeah! I know, the sky is falling.
That wasn't actually to sky, only the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, a bunch of air liners, and bits and pieces of Israeli commuters. Or have you not been paying attention? Do you think we are still in peace time?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 13:06:41 [Permalink]
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Yep, our press is controled by freedom loving corporate interests.., so we're safe.
 There "was" a debate, when, where? One threatens to break out, but really haven't heard one as yet. Going from a defensive, reactive posture to a unilateral, pre-emptive one, is a pretty radical change IMO, and deserving of a spirited debate.
Aren't we already in a "war," did we win it? This war on terror, like the war on drugs, isn't against a state, and seems a bit too subjective for my tastes. Would perfer we call it what it is, and all out effort against murderous global outlaws. And think we should finish it before picking another fight. AFAIK Iraq has yet to be solidly linked to al-Qaida...
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 13:26:23 [Permalink]
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Yeah. The debate is, how should "we" take over the world? Should "we" start by "taking out Saddam" with all-out war now, or should we "take out Saddam" by waiting until we make sure that before we start an all-out war against "Saddam" we have at least forty airbases in every country in the world and all the people of Iraq that survive the sanctions and the war live in poverty that can't possibly sustain life.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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