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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2002 : 07:09:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
What exactly is your point Slater?
I found it humorous because it was so pathetic.
That they should have ruled differently? That they should have refused to listen to the case, because the problems of french dwarfs are insignificant and don't deserve a hearing?
Yes. That and the fact that it took the world body seven whole years to do this one thing.
If you'll reread the story you'll see that the UN found against the dwarfs, not for them. The dwarfs wanted to be tossed but some PC group got a law passed that prevented them from making a living in the guise of protecting their dignity.
The idea that this silliness should not only come up to the UN but that it should take from 1995 'til now to decide on anything I find quite funny.
If you just disagree with the decision they reached and think they took to long, than we are basically of the same opinion. I don't think that governments should keep adults from doing what they want to do for their own good to preserve their dignity. such things tend to invite abuse. The dwarf tossing bit in question might seem ridiculous, but it was in fact a very important decision because it sets a precendant. The same arguments can and have been applied to a variety of similar cases ranging from Pornography to Reality-TV, where gouvernments would like to prohibit people from doing stuff to preserve their "dignity". People, who laugh at the silliness of the dwarf tossing case, have not understood the important question behind it that was being answered here and they likely won't realize how important it was until their gouvernment starts restricting their freedom for their own good.
Even considering what was at stake here all those years, that it took to reach this wrong decision might seem unbelievable at first, but you have to keep in mind the time national courts sometimes take and the massive added bureaucracy they have to deal with in Geneva.
Edited by - Lars_h on 10/01/2002 07:24:32 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 09:36:38 [Permalink]
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Even considering what was at stake here all those years, that it took to reach this wrong decision might seem unbelievable at first, but you have to keep in mind the time national courts sometimes take and the massive added bureaucracy they have to deal with in Geneva.
Here in the States there is an expression--"sitting around with your thumb up your ass." It's vulgar, but it does describe the actions of the UN. If the sound bites on the TV news are to be given any credence the bureaucrats at the UN are treating weapons inspection as though it were an entirely new idea, and not something that has failed for the better part of a decade. Clean slate.
Dealing with WMD is a time sensitive issue. We learned that in lower Manhattan. The National Guard took ten minutes too long to scramble their F-16's on 9/11. Because of those ten little minutes the F-16's may as well not have existed.
If these same bureaucrats who took seven years sitting on their thumbs to deal with flying dwarfs take ten minutes too long to deal with WMD then we may as well not have them at all.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 10:14:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dealing with WMD is a time sensitive issue. We learned that in lower Manhattan. The National Guard took ten minutes too long to scramble their F-16's on 9/11. Because of those ten little minutes the F-16's may as well not have existed.
If these same bureaucrats who took seven years sitting on their thumbs to deal with flying dwarfs take ten minutes too long to deal with WMD then we may as well not have them at all.
747s are not reallt WMD. I don't see what your comment about scrambling F-16s too late has to do with UN officials with different takes on this. You see, they are fully aware of how Iraq got all this technology in the first place. How Donald Rumsfield was over there in the 80s setting up bio/chemical warfare technology transfers. If you want to talk about inept you need to talk about the Reagan and Bush administrations.
It's not hard to see why the UN isn't so eager to go to war there. They are not shaking in their boots like the US because most of them know they haven't done enough bad things to have so many people mad at them.
@tomic
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 10:15:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dealing with WMD is a time sensitive issue. We learned that in lower Manhattan. The National Guard took ten minutes too long to scramble their F-16's on 9/11. Because of those ten little minutes the F-16's may as well not have existed.
If these same bureaucrats who took seven years sitting on their thumbs to deal with flying dwarfs take ten minutes too long to deal with WMD then we may as well not have them at all.
747s are not reallt WMD. I don't see what your comment about scrambling F-16s too late has to do with UN officials with different takes on this. You see, they are fully aware of how Iraq got all this technology in the first place. How Donald Rumsfield was over there in the 80s setting up bio/chemical warfare technology transfers. If you want to talk about inept you need to talk about the Reagan and Bush administrations.
It's not hard to see why the UN isn't so eager to go to war there. They are not shaking in their boots like the US because most of them know they haven't done enough bad things to have so many people mad at them.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 10:49:17 [Permalink]
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747s are not reallt WMD. I don't see what your comment about scrambling F-16s too late has to do with UN officials with different takes on this.
The idea behind both the F-16's and the UN is protection.
If protection isn't timely then it isn't protection.
If you want to talk about inept you need to talk about the Reagan and Bush administrations.
The CIA of the present Bush administration has identified an eminent threat. British Intelligence has confirmed it. To ignore it would be criminally inept.
It's not hard to see why the UN isn't so eager to go to war there. They are not shaking in their boots like the US because most of them know they haven't done enough bad things to have so many people mad at them.
So your Gorgoesque idea of how the UN should work is if they are in trouble the US should send troops in to bail them out, while calling the US imperialists for doing so. But if the US needs to defend itself the UN should say no until it's too late.
Solly does have a point @tomic. Changing nationalities isn't easy, but hey I did it and it was one of the best things I ever did. It really sounds like you would be happier if you followed my example. You'd probably really like Dublin, very high tech and a young populace. Ireland does almost nothing internationally, you'd like that.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 11:17:55 [Permalink]
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Is that a position that someone would think was intelligent in Ireland?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 11:25:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Solly does have a point @tomic. Changing nationalities isn't easy, but hey I did it and it was one of the best things I ever did. It really sounds like you would be happier if you followed my example. You'd probably really like Dublin, very high tech and a young populace. Ireland does almost nothing internationally, you'd like that.
I think I would just rather have the country I live in make the right moves. I think you're wrong. Maybe you should go back to Ireland?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 12:38:13 [Permalink]
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I think I would just rather have the country I live in make the right moves.
And to insure that you are doing...just what?
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I think you're wrong. Maybe you should go back to Ireland?
Well it is very nice there, it's a tempting thought. But I really love my adopted home. I want them to make the right moves too. In this case the right move is a preemptive one.
The way I figure nationalism is something like religion in that if you stop believing you should stop going to church and stop donating money to it. Not toe the party line or get out, just why stay if you don't believe in it?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 12:44:10 [Permalink]
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I figure nationalism is like a religion too. Religion is where one stops thinking, and starts believing.
I'd rather think than believe.
quote:
The way I figure nationalism is something like religion in that if you stop believing you should stop going to church and stop donating money to it. Not toe the party line or get out, just why stay if you don't believe in it?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 12:46:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I think I would just rather have the country I live in make the right moves.
And to insure that you are doing...just what?
I vote and I make noise which is the democatratic way. Or do you suggest I go to DC and blow Bush's brains out. Not that there would be much splatter from that microscopic thing.
quote:
quote:
I think you're wrong. Maybe you should go back to Ireland?
Well it is very nice there, it's a tempting thought. But I really love my adopted home. I want them to make the right moves too. In this case the right move is a preemptive one.
The way I figure nationalism is something like religion in that if you stop believing you should stop going to church and stop donating money to it. Not toe the party line or get out, just why stay if you don't believe in it?
This country was set up so that the people would have a say in what the government does. You suggest that I do not have that right. I suggest you take a class in civics. This idea that if I do not see things the way you do then I should leave is offensive and as unAmerican a concept as I can imagine. This way of thinking is what eventually leads to civil war. Now there's an idea. We can all kill ourselves off because we disagree.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 15:38:39 [Permalink]
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I vote and I make noise which is the democatratic way.
That's good. Any political activisim?
This country was set up so that the people would have a say in what the government does. You suggest that I do not have that right.
I thought that that was what you were suggesting-that you were powerless.
You were the one who was ashamed. Ashamed is a very strong word.
I suggest you take a class in civics.
I'll remind you that I was the one who needed to pass a test to become an American. You got in scott free.
This idea that if I do not see things the way you do then I should leave is offensive and as unAmerican a concept as I can imagine.
The BS is getting thick. You know that I didn't say that you should leave because you disagree with me so don't pull that un-American crap. Several times you said you were ashamed of the country, even more times you've said that our enemies were right in being our enemies.
Pretty potent stuff to publish in time of war.
I was just taking you at your word. If you're ashamed of the place…well life is too short to waste somewhere you think so poorly of. I suggested Ireland because unlike Solly's list of countries it's actually nice there. The people speak English (after a fashion) they never serve dog (but don't try the black pudding), the sewers are underground, nobody hacks your arm off on the bus, the diseases are fairly normal and you have many of the same rights and privileges that Americans enjoy. Not all of course, but most of them.
The idea that you are ashamed of the USA but are somehow trapped here behind some class of a Berlin Wall is offensive and as un-American a concept as I can imagine. One of the American freedoms that is seldom mentioned is you are free to go anytime you want. There are plenty of places in this world, surely you would be happiest somewhere you aren't ashamed of.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 16:14:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
I vote and I make noise which is the democatratic way.
That's good. Any political activisim?
I think that's what I said unless you have a special definition in mind.
quote:
This country was set up so that the people would have a say in what the government does. You suggest that I do not have that right.
I thought that that was what you were suggesting-that you were powerless.
You were the one who was ashamed. Ashamed is a very strong word.
I suggest you take a class in civics.
I'll remind you that I was the one who needed to pass a test to become an American. You got in scott free.
I think Tokyodreamer summed up what more precisely what I meant by "ashamed" and I am still "ashamed" and get more "ashamed" every time the President opens that big Texas mouth of his. The man is a fool and an embarrassment. He has yet to do a single thing in his life he should feel proud of. He even had to steal the Presidency from the real winner. It's hard for me to imagine anyone feeling anything but ashamed by this idiot.
I took civics as well. It's required in schools here you know and we have to pass a test in order to graduate. If it matters I got an A in civics.
quote:
This idea that if I do not see things the way you do then I should leave is offensive and as unAmerican a concept as I can imagine.
The BS is getting thick. You know that I didn't say that you should leave because you disagree with me so don't pull that un-American crap. Several times you said you were ashamed of the country, even more times you've said that our enemies were right in being our enemies.
Pretty potent stuff to publish in time of war.
I was just taking you at your word. If you're ashamed of the place…well life is too short to waste somewhere you think so poorly of. I suggested Ireland because unlike Solly's list of countries it's actually nice there. The people speak English (after a fashion) they never serve dog (but don't try the black pudding), the sewers are underground, nobody hacks your arm off on the bus, the diseases are fairly normal and you have many of the same rights and privileges that Americans enjoy. Not all of course, but most of them.
The idea that you are ashamed of the USA but are somehow trapped here behind some class of a Berlin Wall is offensive and as un-American a concept as I can imagine. One of the American freedoms that is seldom mentioned is you are free to go anytime you want. There are plenty of places in this world, surely you would be happiest somewhere you aren't ashamed of.
Read above and don't exert yourself so twisting my meaning. I believe I can be proud of my country again. There are no guarantees but it is possible but I sincerely doubt I will get to that point until Bush is long gone. I still can't believe that you are trying to pull that "agree with me or leave" crap as if you have some sort of monopoly on what's right and what isn't.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2002 : 17:21:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
I still can't believe that you are trying to pull that "agree with me or leave" crap as if you have some sort of monopoly on what's right and what isn't.
I still can't believe you can't read what is written but have to twist it.
I don't understand why you would want to associate with something you are ashamed of.
I don't claim a monopoly on anything. I associate with the US out of my own free will. I am quite proud of the United States and honored that I am allowed to be an American citizen. That said, if I were ashamed, if I thought the place sucked, then I wouldn't subject myself to it. People leave countries they are ashamed of everyday. It doesn't speak poorly of them, quite the opposite it shows that they have integrity.
True most of them come here, but that's not the point.
Nobody is telling you to go, only wondering why you stay in a place of shame.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2002 : 03:03:30 [Permalink]
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Wow. I forgot about that. You were not only indoctrinated in public school, college and the Marines, you got a double dose in becoming a citizen. You're so pumped full of shit you have to take a laxative to comb your hair.
quote:
I'll remind you that I was the one who needed to pass a test to become an American.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 11:44:38 [Permalink]
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Nobody is telling you to go, only wondering why you stay in a place of shame
--Integrity, or lack thereof. Maybe it's just a military standpoint, but I believe talk is cheap. I would never support anything that shamed me.
But like most people who are given something they do not earn, they'll bitch about it all the while missing the incredible irony of that position.
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No, it's just that most everyone else moved on a long time ago (look up some Rubysue stuff). Only Gorgo just keeps reviving old Iraq threads and posting
--don't know who RubySue is. Gorgo is just a troll (I think you call them here) so he's irrelevant.
My issue is with the anti-US rhetoric and conspiracy. I followed a BA link here, and was overjoyed with a BBS for skeptics who don't blindly latch on to stupid hokum. Yet here are a few of them falling right in line with all the US/NWO ravings. This is no different conspiracy than JFK, Apollo, CIA putting Crack in LA, Area 51, or any other garbage. It always goes back to the big bad gevernment. Usually right to one man at the top, as if that's how the government really worked. Hell, just take the final little step and start blaming Skull and Bones- at least you have proof that Bush was in that club.
I've heard it all before. GI's (being on the receiving end as we're the 'stormtroopers' in the NWO push) get more than thier fill of being accused of enslaving the planet. Yet none of the people that thought they 'knew the truth' about why the US does things are ever people I've seen actually in these places themselves. They claim we were conquering the Balkans, when in reality we stopped slaughter more horrific than anyone who hasn't seen it can imagine. The most graphic camera shots on CNN will never convey the reality of what true human suffering is. I must have forgot to do much conquering while I was busy burying whole villages.
I may not be 'moving on', but I will not stop jumping all over a pathetic conspiracy when one is put forth. I'm not going to simply roll over and say we didn't go to the moon, and I won't just let ridiculous statements about New World Orders and secret evil plots go unchallenged.
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It's not hard to see why the UN isn't so eager to go to war there. They are not shaking in their boots like the US because most of them know they haven't done enough bad things to have so many people mad at them
--Seriously flawed logic. Terrorists do not care who they kill. Just what was Kenya's crime to Islam that it deserved a bombing? Yeah, it was a US Embassy, but how many Americans died as opposed to Kenyans just going to the market?
All 3000+ that died on 9/11 were Americans? Not a one was a muslim? Terrorists will kill 10,000 people anywhere in the world just to get one person they don't like. Not 'provoking' them is no assurance of security. More, if you didn't pursue and imprison or expell terrorists (so as not to provoke them) you are a collaborator, as was Afghanistan or Libya. You'll have MORE terrorists because being soft on them is like a beacon for them.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through.
Edited by - The SollyLama on 10/03/2002 11:45:44 |
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