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Physiofly
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2002 : 18:26:21 [Permalink]
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The very fact that this is considered important enough to be news deeply disturbs me. This is one of those things that should only be in "News of the Weird;" however, it is apparently common enough that people are trying to rationally defend their superstition as an alternative to a proven scientific theory.
-me. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 05:00:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Evolution has not been proven," said Taylor, who joined the debate over what should be taught in Cobb schools after reading about the ACLU lawsuit. "There are a growing number of scientists who are skeptical about Darwinism."
I wonder if Taylor is a biologist or has ever studied biology or evolution. I thought the only argument was regarding the mechanism (punctuated vs. gradual), not the fact of evolution.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Archibald Stuart (1791) |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 07:02:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Looks like creationists in Georgia are up to their old tricks:
In our local paper, on August 30th, the following OpEd piece by Cal Thomas appeared on the same subject. The title in the paper was "What do Evolutionist Fear"
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/calthomas/ct20020827.shtml
The following was my reply, but I do not know if it was printed. Two week vacation in NW Wyoming kept me from checking.
quote:
August 31, 2002
Fear of Evolution
In response to Cal Thomas' "What do evolutionists fear?" August 30th Viewpoint. Two things the teaching of psuedoscience as science and ignorance of the scientific methods.
I read his viewpoint twice to make sure I didn't miss the evidence he would surely present to support the creation model. I found none. I found ad hominen attacks, a couple of 300 year
old quotes, and the mention of scientist who have written books questioning evolution. These books are typically an exercise in irreducible, unexplainable, hand waving to follow doctrine. While the majority of scientists follow the facts where they lead.
If evolution is a belief, then it is a rational belief because it is well supported by the facts. The facts/evidence have been accumulating for 140 years. The truth of evolution depends on these facts, it does not depend upon who believes it. Mr. Thomas clearly doesn't believe the evidence.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 09:20:54 [Permalink]
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It's true there are several schools of thought with respect to evolutionary mechanisms, such as punk eek vs gradualism, the roles of natural selection, neutral selection and genetic drift, and if folks want to advocate teaching students about these differences, no problems here. In fact, I'd say teachers would be remiss not to teach those things. The leap from methodological differences to intelligent design, however, is incomprehensible. Science requires, nay, demands that we have much more than "these are problems or potential problems with evolution by natural selection" to generate an inference to a willful being that creates by magic. Really, how do we know anything about God-hypotheses anyway? Obviously science can't say anything about them. How does it follow that our schools can even teach intelligent design when science can't tell us anything about the designer (by definition!).
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 09:51:20 [Permalink]
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I hope (big hope) that someone in that school district in Georgia is smart enough to demand that EVERY creation story be taught as a "balanced" approach to life's origins.
And if the school board says "no", then you challenge them in court to provide a list of which Creation stories are acceptable and which ones are not.
Beat them with their own weapons.
(:raig |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 11:22:23 [Permalink]
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Not sure, but maybe this isn't a totally bad ideal. If there were a course, that presented all the various "Orgin" theories and claims, side by side, with their accompaning authority...?
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 12:13:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not sure, but maybe this isn't a totally bad ideal. If there were a course, that presented all the various "Orgin" theories and claims, side by side, with their accompaning authority...? [NubiWan]
I'm a big fan of the Dance of Shiva, myself. I would demand that the dance interpretation be performed in the school auditorium by a qualified Hindu dance troupe. The bronze statue is really quite lovely, BTW.
At the elementary school level, I would press for the Iroquois creation story. It's very simple and goes like this...
"The Iroquois trace the beginning of human life to a time when Sky-woman fell to an island created by a giant turtle, which grew in shape and size to become North America. There she gave birth to a daughter, whose children propagated the human race."
More colorful than ripping a rib out of a man, wouldn't you say? Not sure the school board would agree with me, though. But hey, the Iroquois were AMERICAN indians. Know-what-I-mean?  .
(:raig
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 13:12:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not sure, but maybe this isn't a totally bad ideal. If there were a course, that presented all the various "Orgin" theories and claims, side by side, with their accompaning authority...?
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
Why are non-scientific origin myths so much more important than other history that they need their own class? This whole thing of trying to appease as many religions as possible has to stop. This is education. The goal is to prepare children for the world of arts, sciences and business. Of what possible pragmatic use would a class of creation stories be?
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 13:18:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not sure, but maybe this isn't a totally bad ideal. If there were a course, that presented all the various "Orgin" theories and claims, side by side, with their accompaning authority...?
It would be an excellent idea to teach Mythology in high school. You wouldn't have to touch on existing religions but confine the course to earlier ones. One class spent on creation myths of Africans, Asians, Polynessians, North and South American Indians, classical Europeans might open a tremendous number of eyes. I think of the religion folder here and the number of Xians who don't realise that their religion is a certain type of myth because they have never heard any other myths in their lives except the christian. So many exist in a cultural/mythologic vacuum. Comparitive mythology show the non exclusivness of this kind of thought.
But they are burning Harry Potter, Joe Campbell might be next in the xians inforcement of ignorance.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Physiofly
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 21:30:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not sure, but maybe this isn't a totally bad ideal. If there were a course, that presented all the various "Orgin" theories and claims, side by side, with their accompaning authority...?
That is fine, providing the course is taught in sociology or world history. The problem with creationists is they want their mythology taught as science. The risk here is not just to the teaching of evolution but goes to the very foundation of what science is. Science is like a jigsaw puzzle without any preconception of what picture is on the box - the picture that emerges is the result of putting the pieces together. Creationist start with the picture and try make the pieces fit - hewing them as necessary to create the picture they desire. Creationism, in addition to passing belief off as fact, ultimately teaches students that science is nothing more than the validation of preconception.
"Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a
deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions." - Niccolo Machiavelli
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2002 : 10:54:34 [Permalink]
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Cal Thomas quote:
There are only two models for the origin of humans: evolution and creation. If creation occurred, it did so just once and there will be no "second acts." If evolution occurs, it does so too slowly to be observed. Both theories are accepted on faith by those who believe in them. Neither theory can be tested scientifically because neither model can be observed or repeated.
This is total baloney. Apparently, Cal gets his info from "The Institute for Creation Research." Lacking evidence of their own, they attack evolution. When all ells fails, they pull the faith in either theory card. There is plenty of evidence supporting evolution. Observable and testable evidence. Mountains of it. Furthermore, they know it. Dumbshits like Cal get their "science" from these liars.
Why do these nitwits think that attacks on evolution will somehow give their "science" respectability?
Creationism, in all it's pseudoscientific forms, will never be the default winner if the theory of evolution is somehow toppled. Only a naturalistic theory, with tons of supporting evidence could ever replace evolution as the best theory in town.
What frightens me is how many collage grads, in positions of authority, have no clue about science. They don't even understand simple concepts like what is meant by a theory in science or how scientific method works. Forget the religious right. Why are our universities turning out ignoramuses?
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2002 : 16:58:47 [Permalink]
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Yes, absolutely, Shiva, Mythology, any 'Orgin' story, that held or holds, sway over a large portion of humanity. Each version presented with a history of how the tales evolved and the authority of each one's claim to "the Truth." Evolution included along with the explaination of the self correcting 'Scientific Method,' used for it's own claim of truth. Such a say, high-school level course, really would be "educational." As pointed out, too many think there are only two choices...
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2002 : 10:27:07 [Permalink]
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Again I say,
Beat them with their own weapons.
Has the Cobb County Board of Education agreed on a standard text for alternative explanations for origins of life?
I don't know of ANY school board that will allow total discretion on the part of a science teacher as to what texts are allowed in the classroom. So does a science teacher have to submit all proposed teaching materials to the school board? To the principal? To the school board THROUGH the pricipal. Every science teacher in every school in the district?
If the school board won't listen to the logic of science, then demand the logic of the bureaucracy. Submit a copy of every alternative origin explanation there is, dump them in a heap at the next board meeting and demand board review of all materials in a timely and expeditious fashion.
Take them to civil court; to the appeals court; drag in the State Board of Education.
Bury them in motions and briefs that will tie up the school board AND their money. Make them hemorrhage money out of their operating budget.
Take the polite debate out of the board meetings and get down and dirty in the courtroom.
(:raig |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2002 : 19:44:39 [Permalink]
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Best idea I've heard in a long, time, Mespo.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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