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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 10/21/2002 : 10:30:35
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Luke,an educated Greek, he was writing within the historical traditions,established by Thucydides and may have been present at some the events he records
So I started looking through Acts to find out which parts gave actual historic information. I didn't get past chapter one, the story of how Matthias got called up from the bench to play, when the book ran into trouble.
If it is telling authentic history then the rest of the bible is lying.
Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
About 150? First Corinthians 15:6 says that there were 500
1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. (17 )For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. (18) Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. (19) And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Oh yuck, gross!!
Okay, Acts says that Judas took the money he got for turning Jesus in and bought property. An unrepentant Judas plans for the future and buys himself a plot of land. A field that we know today has no really high spots or jagged rocks. So if he falls headlong and his bowels gush out that has to be god punishing him (for enabling Jesus to be the salvation of mankind) miraculously because there is no way to do that much damage without skydiving.
But if this is history written by somebody who was present then what is Matthew 27:3 ?
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, (4) Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that. (5) And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. (6) And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. (7) And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. (8) Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
That's a strange historic tradition. Judas dies twice.
This time he is extremely repentant, in fact he's suicidal. He throws away the money, instead of investing in real estate with it. (Pieces of silver, by the way, were coins from the era of Constantine. But there weren't silver coins minted in Judas' day--very small point and we'll let it pass.) He hangs himself instead of falling down and exploding. Priests buy the Potter's field instead of Judas. The field is named after the "blood money" instead of the gushed out bowels.
And why does Matthew say," Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day?" 'Unto this day' is an expression that you only use to denote a traditional usage from the distant past not something that happened just a few years ago.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 10/21/2002 : 12:20:29 [Permalink]
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If I weren't so lazy, I'd love to gather all the bits like this throughout the bible, starting with the two creation accounts, into a booklet, or PDF or something.
Kind of a "Biblical Errancy for Dummies".
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2002 : 12:57:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Luke,an educated Greek, he was writing within the historical traditions,established by Thucydides and may have been present at some the events he records
So I started looking through Acts to find out which parts gave actual historic information. I didn't get past chapter one, the story of how Matthias got called up from the bench to play, when the book ran into trouble.
If it is telling authentic history then the rest of the bible is lying.
Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
About 150? First Corinthians 15:6 says that there were 500
1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. (17 )For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. (18) Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. (19) And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Oh yuck, gross!!
Okay, Acts says that Judas took the money he got for turning Jesus in and bought property. An unrepentant Judas plans for the future and buys himself a plot of land. A field that we know today has no really high spots or jagged rocks. So if he falls headlong and his bowels gush out that has to be god punishing him (for enabling Jesus to be the salvation of mankind) miraculously because there is no way to do that much damage without skydiving.
But if this is history written by somebody who was present then what is Matthew 27:3 ?
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, (4) Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that. (5) And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. (6) And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. (7) And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. (8) Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
That's a strange historic tradition. Judas dies twice.
This time he is extremely repentant, in fact he's suicidal. He throws away the money, instead of investing in real estate with it. (Pieces of silver, by the way, were coins from the era of Constantine. But there weren't silver coins minted in Judas' day--very small point and we'll let it pass.) He hangs himself instead of falling down and exploding. Priests buy the Potter's field instead of Judas. The field is named after the "blood money" instead of the gushed out bowels.
And why does Matthew say," Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day?" 'Unto this day' is an expression that you only use to denote a traditional usage from the distant past not something that happened just a few years ago.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled
Ok. This is gonna be scary cause a Wiccan is about to defend the Bible.
The individual books were written by different authors and edited through the years. There are some historical nuggets and some differences of opinion.
In Acts, Peter is recounting the death of Judas Iscariot. (Also, the New American Standard refers to them as bretheren, not disciples.)
Matthew is personally recounting the death of Judas Iscariot.
1 Corintians is telling the tale of Jesus's resurection and that he appeared to 500 bretheren all at once. In Acts, it refers to 120 bretheren listening to Peter.
Neither make mention of total membership.
The Bible on this matter, does not agree with itself on the method of Judas's death. It does have some historical mention of battles and places. Again, we are dealing with multiple authors and differences of opinion.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.
Edited by - valiant dancer on 10/21/2002 12:58:14 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2002 : 13:42:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ok. This is gonna be scary cause a Wiccan is about to defend the Bible.
The individual books were written by different authors and edited through the years. There are some historical nuggets and some differences of opinion.
Maybe so, but there are those that claim the Bible is an inerrant source of historical data and find anything remotely true and cling to that as proof of the Bible being the ultimate historical record. Maybe it does have nuggets of truth but the Bible would not be a primary source for a real historian. it would be one of many sources and taken with lots and lots of salt.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2002 : 15:10:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
In Acts, Peter is recounting the death of Judas Iscariot. ...
Matthew is personally recounting the death of Judas Iscariot...
The Bible on this matter, does not agree with itself on the method of Judas's death. It does have some historical mention of battles and places. Again, we are dealing with multiple authors and differences of opinion.
I don't recall the NT mentioning actual battles, only visions of battles. Mention of places once again gets us on shaky ground with the NT's infamous misplacing of locations.
I agree that it was written by multiple authors, however what they offer are unique and contradictory stories not a simple muddling of some minor details. But the claim has been made multiple times that Luke is a learned accurate historian. If we are to accept that claim we must then dismiss Matthew.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2002 : 18:42:36 [Permalink]
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Here's a good one. I think we should call it A Hard ACT to Follow Peter (& god) murder a couple when they don't fork over their money to him
5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, (2) And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. (3) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (4 ) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (5) And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. (6) And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. (7) And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. (8) And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. (9) Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. (10) Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. (11) And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
Do we think Peter owned a white van with a roof rack?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 08:41:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
In Acts, Peter is recounting the death of Judas Iscariot. ...
Matthew is personally recounting the death of Judas Iscariot...
The Bible on this matter, does not agree with itself on the method of Judas's death. It does have some historical mention of battles and places. Again, we are dealing with multiple authors and differences of opinion.
I don't recall the NT mentioning actual battles, only visions of battles. Mention of places once again gets us on shaky ground with the NT's infamous misplacing of locations.
I agree that it was written by multiple authors, however what they offer are unique and contradictory stories not a simple muddling of some minor details. But the claim has been made multiple times that Luke is a learned accurate historian. If we are to accept that claim we must then dismiss Matthew.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled
2 Kings 25:1-10 details a breif battle at Jericho and the aftermath.
Numbers and Genesis also have accounts of battles. While placenames have been somewhat inaccurate, there are some nuggets of history contained within the Bible.
Likewise, the Qu'ran also has accounts of battles which are historical in nature.
Luke is reported to be a historian. It doesn't make him one. Only through verification through other sources can say whether he was accurate or not.
The Bible inerrancy advocates are similarly wrong when they claim complete accuracy in the Bible.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 10:36:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Valiant Dancer wrote:
2 Kings 25:1-10 details a breif battle at Jericho and the aftermath. Numbers and Genesis also have accounts of battles. While placenames have been somewhat inaccurate, there are some nuggets of history contained within the Bible. Likewise, the Qu'ran also has accounts of battles which are historical in nature.
Thanks for sharing, but what the hell does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 10:50:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater wrote:
If it is telling authentic history then the rest of the bible is lying.
That's either faulty reasoning or hyperbole. If two versions of a specific event differ, one or both are wrong and, by definition, the Bible cannot be considered inerrant. But that's significantly different from saying, for example, that contradictory versions of Judas' death exposes Micah, Malachi, and Mark as "lies".
As for Judas, it looks to me like yet another clumsy attempt by 'Matthew' to reverse engineer prophesy.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 10:52:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Valiant Dancer wrote:
2 Kings 25:1-10 details a breif battle at Jericho and the aftermath. Numbers and Genesis also have accounts of battles. While placenames have been somewhat inaccurate, there are some nuggets of history contained within the Bible. Likewise, the Qu'ran also has accounts of battles which are historical in nature.
Thanks for sharing, but what the hell does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?
Slater questioned the existance of accounts of battles in the Bible. I was providing passages and books.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 11:06:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Valiant Dancer wrote:
Slater questioned the existance of accounts of battles in the Bible. I was providing passages and books.
Slater said (and you quote him as saying): "I don't recall the NT mentioning actual battles, only visions of battles." You reference 2 Kings, Numbers, Genesis, and the Qu'ran. Which of these would you assign to the NT? Furthermore, the "historical mention of battles and places" that you seem so happy about is pretty thin gruel indeed. There is a real place called Kansas, known as possessing real farms and the site of real tornadic activity, and none of that lends credance to the Wizard of Oz.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 10/22/2002 11:07:25 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 11:43:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Valiant Dancer wrote:
Slater questioned the existance of accounts of battles in the Bible. I was providing passages and books.
Slater said (and you quote him as saying): "I don't recall the NT mentioning actual battles, only visions of battles." You reference 2 Kings, Numbers, Genesis, and the Qu'ran. Which of these would you assign to the NT? Furthermore, the "historical mention of battles and places" that you seem so happy about is pretty thin gruel indeed. There is a real place called Kansas, known as possessing real farms and the site of real tornadic activity, and none of that lends credance to the Wizard of Oz.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 10/22/2002 11:07:25
Point taken, but the original thought I proposed is that the Bible chronicled some battles. I did not delineate between NT and OT. I threw in the Qu'ran as an example of other religious texts containing historical accounts. I also said that due to the inaccuracies in place names and dates that independant verification by other sources would be in order to determine the accuracy of the account.
There is no need to get snippy. I am merely pointing out some historical accounts within the Bible which indicate that some historical validity exists within the Bible. Not that it is inerrant, nor that it is 100% accurate. I am also not saying that it is 100% inaccurate nor based on factual historical accounts that can be verified.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_arcs.htm
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 11:52:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Valiant Dancer wrote:
There is no need to get snippy. I am merely pointing out some historical accounts within the Bible which indicate that some historical validity exists within the Bible.
There are historical accounts within the Bible which indicates that the Bible contains some historical accounts. Thanks for pointing it out but, again, so what?
quote:
Valiant Dancer wrote:
Not that it is inerrant, nor that it is 100% accurate. I am also not saying that it is 100% inaccurate nor based on factual historical accounts that can be verified.
What, if anything, are you saying? Can you imagine any piece of historical fiction and/or myth that is not grounded in some degree of history and geography? Consider it "snippy" if you wish, but I haven't a clue what you're getting at.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 10/22/2002 11:53:09 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 13:23:49 [Permalink]
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That's either faulty reasoning or hyperbole.
It would be were this any other book. This tome however claims to be the inerrant inspired word of god.
The claimants have put all their chips on one square. That's why Apologetics (or what ever they are calling themselves this week) go to such lengths of twisting what the bible says. That's the reasoning behind the attacks on Darwin and Copernicus. Because of the basic premise if any part is wrong the whole thing is wrong.
An ordinary human book and you can shrug off things like the author saying San Jose when he meant San Diego. Or saying in one part that the villain was hung and in another pushed off a cliff. "To err is human…" and a book with ordinary errors is shown to be a human book. That is why I say that these human editing mistakes show the whole thing to be a lie as it claims superhuman origins for the whole volume and not just certain parts.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 13:32:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Valiant Dancer wrote:
There is no need to get snippy. I am merely pointing out some historical accounts within the Bible which indicate that some historical validity exists within the Bible.
There are historical accounts within the Bible which indicates that the Bible contains some historical accounts. Thanks for pointing it out but, again, so what?
quote:
Valiant Dancer wrote:
Not that it is inerrant, nor that it is 100% accurate. I am also not saying that it is 100% inaccurate nor based on factual historical accounts that can be verified.
What, if anything, are you saying? Can you imagine any piece of historical fiction and/or myth that is not grounded in some degree of history and geography? Consider it "snippy" if you wish, but I haven't a clue what you're getting at.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 10/22/2002 11:53:09
OK. lets try this a different way.
Your reference to the Wizard of Oz is being interpreted by me as an equivalence to the Bible. This I feel is flawed as the Wizard of Oz is fiction and the Bible is a religious text with some historical accounts making it a work of non-fiction. Like all works of non-fiction, it has factual sections and erroneous sections.
The posts I made to Slater were to provide sections of the Bible where historical accounts of battles occurred. Granted, they were in the OT and not in the NT. It was answering a question and not meant to have an effect on the flow of the conversation.
I think the whole problem is Bible Inerrancy advocates. I do not recall any passage where the Bible calls itself the inerrant word of God. I believe that is a doctorine of the Church. If you have passages that disprove that, I would like to find out about it.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 13:34:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater wrote:
It would be were this any other book. This tome however claims to be the inerrant inspired word of god.
Certainly "inspired" (their position, not mine), but I know of no verse that asserts inerrancy.
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