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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 11/05/2002 : 16:45:39 [Permalink]
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Just thought I would bounce this back up to give DA a chance to reply...this thread was made for him after all.
Acts gives a second (actually a thrird-Paul doesn't know that Judas betrayed Jesus) story of the death of Judas and it has St Peter comitting two cold blooded murders. Do you just ignore this and read the parts of the NT that you like? |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 19:03:51 [Permalink]
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Acts 1:3quote:
After his[Jesus] suffering,he[Jesus] showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive[from the dead].He appeared to them over a period of forty days[at which time the number of witnesses could easily have reached 500]....
It's amazing Slater you want your cake and eat it too! Your always claiming (without a shread of proof) that the NT was written circa 325ad by these offical Roman scribes who had the backing of THE ROMAN EMPIRE behind them and yet they made all these contradictory blunders (according to you).A better account is that these apparent contrdictions are there because the writers were being faithful to recount the facts either as they personally saw them or ( in the case of Luke) as it was told to him by eyewitnesses. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 23:39:06 [Permalink]
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So you admit that it has contradictions...about time. You skip over the murders Peter committed though.
Since it has contradictions it isn't the word of god. So why do you care what it says? If you claim these aren't contradictions then how can you say that it is to poorly written for Romans to have written it? |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 00:23:16 [Permalink]
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To Slater,you really need to read more carefully quote:
Slater:So you admit that it has contradictions.
However,what I said is: quote:
Your always claiming (without a shread of proof) that the NT
was written circa 325ad by these offical Roman scribes who had the backing of THE ROMAN EMPIRE behind them and
yet they made all these contradictory blunders (according to you).A better account is that these apparent
contrdictions are there because the writers were being faithful to recount the facts either as they personally saw
them or ( in the case of Luke) as it was told to him by eyewitnesses.
Note I said twice that it is you who wants to claim that the document is fabricated by the Romans and yet they(according to your view) couldn't get the story straight.That is a problem for your view.I merely made an observation from ,over 10 years experience being a District Steward and having to write down various "eyewitness"accounts of the same event,that when you are dealing with that type of data you sometimes get what appearsto be conflicting accounts but really aren't.  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/04/2003 08:39:38 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 08:50:14 [Permalink]
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Slater: quote:
You skip over the murders Peter committed though.
I didn't skip over anything it's irrelevant.In historical records what you,the indvivdual reader,find distasteful doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is "did it happen or not?" |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 12:06:30 [Permalink]
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Note I said twice that it is you who wants to claim that the document is fabricated by the Romans and yet they(according to your view) couldn't get the story straight.
Have I ever claimed that the Romans were inerrant?
History shows that the NT was created by committee. They threw out most of the books of the bible and kept the few that pleased the Emperor.
Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too. You want the bible to be inerrant and contradictory at the same time.
I merely made an observation from ,over 10 years experience being a District Steward and having to write down various "eyewitness"accounts of the same event,that when you are dealing with that type of data you sometimes get what appearsto be conflicting accounts but really aren't.
So you can't trust them is what you are saying. Like the ressurection stories where Jesus has 3 different sets of last words and ressurects in one story 85 miles away from where he ressurects in another.
So if you interviewed an eyewitness that said that a crime took place in New York City and a second said the same crime took place in Albany would you conclude that their testimonies only appeared to conflict or that they actually did conflict? What if one said that everything happened in a single day and another said six weeks? Conflict or not? That's what the NT "witnesses" report about the ressurection.
In historical records what you,the indvivdual reader,find distasteful doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is "did it happen or not?"
If Acts happened then you have the leading Apostle, Christ's number one boy, committing a double homicide while he is shaking a group down for all their money. You have Paul blinding some poor bastard and you have the followers of Jesus happily burning the Jews books.
It's distasteful because it's immoral. The book is claimed to be THE guide to morality.
If it did happen then you should be ashamed for aligning yourself with such thugs.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 19:18:20 [Permalink]
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Slater: quote:
Have I ever claimed that the Romans were inerrant?
History shows that the NT was created by committee. They threw out most of the books of the bible and kept the few that pleased the Emperor.Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too. You want the bible to be inerrant and contradictory at the same time.
I'm going to start calling you Slick Slater.First, did I say you claimed "that the Romans were inerrant?" What I did say is that it is damaging to your position, if as you claim the NT is the product of a "committee", that they wouldn't havepolished up these rough edges that you have mentioned.Secondly,I also stated that I have had over 10 years experience of taking notes from multiple witnesses concerning the same event.I pointed out that just because two or more people describe the same event
with what appears to be conflicting accounts doesn't negate the overall credibility of their testimony.Indeed it's the lack of a polished version of the account which demonstrates that there is no collusion going on.That's what the NT in general and the book of Acts in particular do,they present "the facts, just the facts" even if it appears to be contradictory.Third why do you keep bringing up a position I'm not arguing( the Bible being inerrant)?Finally,you keep bringing up other books in the NT ,I thought this thread was about Acts,its fine with me if that's what you want but don't start crying latter. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 19:57:36 [Permalink]
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What I did say is that it is damaging to your position, if as you claim the NT is the product of a "committee", that they wouldn't have polished up these rough edges that you have mentioned.
The Committees were called "Ecumenical Councils." The one I am referring to was the Council of Nicaea. You never did answer why the version they picked was the true one.
Secondly,I also stated that I have had over 10 years experience of taking notes from multiple witnesses concerning the same event. I pointed out that just because two or more people describe the same event with what appears to be conflicting accounts doesn't negate the overall credibility of their testimony.
So are you saying that if two versions place an event 85 miles from each others scenes or can't agree if it took one day or forty then they are probably not talking about the same event?
If a "District Steward" is more than a janitor your district is in big trouble.
Indeed it's the lack of a polished version of the account which demonstrates that there is no collusion going on.
I see…if they agreed with one another it would show collusion? So by contradicting one another it validates their viability as a witness.
You'll twist the NT any which way so long as you can claim that it means what you want it to mean. American Atheists couldn't pay for a better representative than you. If any lurkers whose faith was in doubt came across your writing at this site you would drive them from the clutches of christianity.
That's what the NT in general and the book of Acts in particular do, they present "the facts, just the facts" even if it appears to be contradictory.
The Book of Acts says that they were murders and thieves. If this is a fact why do you follow them? If it isn't a fact why do you follow the NT?
Finally,you keep bringing up other books in the NT ,I thought this thread was about Acts, its fine with me if that's what you want but don't start crying latter
Because you won't touch the crimes committed in Acts. Because it's story doesn't match the other versions of this same fairy tale.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 20:59:37 [Permalink]
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Slater:
quote:
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You skip over the murders Peter committed though.
Ah, let's look at this again:
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
7Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”
She said, “Yes, for so much.”
9Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
Anyone reading these passages with a basic understanding of scripture would realize that it was God that took the lives of these two people, not Peter. Peter only tells why it happens. Peter did not lay a hand on either of them, nor pronounce a curse. He simply foretold what was about to happen and why. There were surely others around in the room that saw it all. None thought Peter caused the deaths. There are many examples in the old testament of God taking the life of someone who is doing something terribly wrong, especially opposing the work of God. Read Numbers 16 for an example.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/04/2003 21:04:12 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 01:05:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
There are many examples in the old testament of God taking the life of someone who is doing something terribly wrong
Yes, something horrible, like making fun of someone's bald head...
This is so horrible that God sent two she-bears to maul and mutilate 42 children to death.
(2nd Kings 2:23) |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 09:49:05 [Permalink]
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| Doomar, please post the biblical book, chapter, and verse (and which translation you are using, if that's important) rather than pasting the entire content. There is a button you can use to provide a link to any part of the bible (right next to the spell checker). |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 13:45:00 [Permalink]
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Anyone reading these passages with a basic understanding of scripture would realize that it was God that took the lives of these two people, not Peter.
What absolute nonsense. You must ignore the entire ministry of Christ to make such a claim. God murdering Ananias & Sapphira completely completely negates Jesus dying for the forgiveness of sin.
Peter did not lay a hand on either of them, nor pronounce a curse. He simply foretold what was about to happen and why.
It doesn't say what he did. Just that a husband, and three hours later his wife, fell dead at Peter's feet and their bodies were dumped without any of the standard Christian ceremonies. Dumped without the decency of notifying the next of kin.
However we get a good hint at what happened when we review an earlier story about Peter, in which Jesus complains that Peter is too quick to use a knife on people.
There were surely others around in the room that saw it all. None thought Peter caused the deaths.
Where does it say that? All I see is "So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things." This group that was being extorted out of everything they owned were in fear of their lives if they kept anything.
There are many examples in the old testament of God taking the life of someone who is doing something terribly wrong, especially opposing the work of God.
So you are willing to throw out the baby Jesus with the bath water. Did Jesus bring the forgiveness of sin or not? Was Yahweh having a little relapse ; couldn't he go cold turkey with his smiting sinners habit?
Tell me. If exactly the same thing happened in your church, the very one you attend, with your minister instead of St Peter, would you dial 911? If not, why not? If so, why do you think differently about Acts?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 15:24:11 [Permalink]
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Doomar said: "Anyone reading these passages with a basic understanding of scripture would realize that it was God that took the lives of these two people, not Peter."
Slater replied: What absolute nonsense. You must ignore the entire ministry of Christ to make such a claim. God murdering Ananias & Sapphira completely completely negates Jesus dying for the forgiveness of sin.
Okay, somehow you are mixing your theology understanding with the facts of what is written. A lot of mistakes here. God does not do murder, He executes judgment. Jesus's dying for sinners must be looked at in congruence with His teaching of repentance of sin and faith in God in order to be saved. He also taught about the reality of hell for the unrepentant, so He didn't eliminate the future judgment that all of us must face. This sin of lying to God in front of the leaders of the church was very grievious and should not be made light of.
[size=1]Peter did not lay a hand on either of them, nor pronounce a curse. He simply foretold what was about to happen and why.
It doesn't say what he did. Just that a husband, and three hours later his wife, fell dead at Peter's feet and their bodies were dumped without any of the standard Christian ceremonies. Dumped without the decency of notifying the next of kin.
Ah, quite a presumption in and of itself.
However we get a good hint at what happened when we review an earlier story about Peter, in which Jesus complains that Peter is too quick to use a knife on people.
Oh, brother. Check your logic book.
[b]There were surely others around in the room that saw it all. None thought Peter caused the deaths. [/b]
Where does it say that? All I see is "So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things." This group that was being extorted out of everything they owned were in fear of their lives if they kept anything.
I think you missed the point entirely. The people who died didn't have to sell their land and give anything. Barnabus had done it out of love for the needy. The evil of lying about what you're doing was the point.
Tell me. If exactly the same thing happened in your church, the very one you attend, with your minister instead of St Peter, would you dial 911? If not, why not? If so, why do you think differently about Acts?[/size=1]
I would be afraid, I'm sure. Just like those people were in Acts. I would not, however, accuse God or the preacher of murder as you have. I wouldn't be that presumptious or antagonistic. That would be pretty stupid after seeing someone else die for doing evil right in front of my eyes at the hand of God.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 17:06:28 [Permalink]
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My vision is quite good, thank you. I have no need of your large print or your red type.
A lot of mistakes here.
Only if you try to twist Acts into saying what you want it to say instead of what it actually does.
God does not do murder, He executes judgment.
The story of Ananis & Sapphira is that of a double homicide. Acts doesn't say, or even imply that God did them in. I'm not saying that God did them in.
Only you are.
Jesus's dying for sinners must be looked at in congruence with His teaching of repentance of sin and faith in God in order to be saved.
Which is exactly what you aren't doing.
Every last thing that Jesus supposedly did or stood for would be rendered null and void if God went around killing sinners.
He also taught about the reality of hell for the unrepentant, so He didn't eliminate the future judgment that all of us must face.
Ananis & Sapphira were Christians. Christians in the act of giving almost everything they owned to the Church. The Greek word for what they kept of their own money implies a dowry. The money Sapphira's father would have given them as "insurance" of sorts to help Sapphira in case something happened to Ananis.
This sin of lying to God in front of the leaders of the church was very grievious and should not be made light of.
How stupid do you think we are? You want us to believe God struck down this nice couple because they told a fib?!!! And not Peter because they only gave him most of their money when he wanted them to give him ALL of their money?
…their bodies were dumped without any of the standard Christian ceremonies. Dumped without the decency of notifying the next of kin.
Ah, quite a presumption in and of itself.
No presumptions at all. It's right there in the NT.
Burial ceremonies in the early church took three days. There were masses to be held and grave side rites to be preformed. Sapphira was Mrs Ananis…that's next of kin in any bodies book. She had last seen Ananis only three hours before and she didn't know he had been killed.
… Peter is too quick to use a knife on people.
Oh, brother. Check your logic book.
I just checked and it's fine.
Two people are supposed to fork over every cent they have in the world to a cult leader. They keep some of their own money but tell him they are giving him every cent.
The cult leader finds out.
The cult leader confronts the husband and the husband falls dead from unspecified causes. The cult leader tells his followers to dump the corpse. Not cult rites are held.
Three hours later the wife comes looking for her husband and is confronted by the cult leader. She too falls dead at the cult leaders feet of unspecified causes.
The cult leaders teacher previously admonished him that he would "die by the sword," because he cut off a man's ear with his knife.
Logic book says…"call the police. Have Peter arrested."
The people who died didn't have to sell their land and give anything. Barnabus had done it out of love for the needy. The evil of lying about what you're doing was the point.
Give every last penny to the church or you're dead meat was the point. "Your money or your life," as the old saying goes.
I would not, however, accuse God or the preacher of murder as you have. I wouldn't be that presumptious or antagonistic.
So you don't call an ambulance for an old woman who had a heart attack because you--incorrectly--diagnosed that she didn't have long enough to live and you wouldn't call the cops because a minister threatened two people with death and they both died on the spot.
That's why I'm proud not to be a Christian.
That would be pretty stupid after seeing someone else die for doing evil right in front of my eyes at the hand of God.
You worship an extortionist? Shame on you.
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| Edited by - Slater on 01/05/2003 17:08:21 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 22:15:43 [Permalink]
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| Slater, what can I say. You should teach theology for Atheists. I'm sure your classes would be packed. Be careful though, if you read too much of that Bible it may mess up your current theology. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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