|
|
|
got something for you
New Member
3 Posts |
 Posted - 11/16/2002 : 13:14:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The Intelligent Design crowd needs for there to be no transitional. They have achieved this by simply ignoring what makes these fossils transitional.
Because archaeopteryx has been classified as a bird, case closed. Never mind it's reptilian features. That's how it's done. They seem to be waiting for a classification called transitional. That isn't going to happen.
Archaeopteryx is a true "perching bird" possessing actual feathers, pnuematized vertebrae and pelvis, and a lung system common to birds. The burden of proof lies with the evolutionist hoping to produce a reptile out of a verifiable bird. What is the process in which reptilian scales would morph into feathers? (It's certainly not happening with this creature. A bird is a bird is a bird.) I respectfully ask for another supposed proof of transition. If this were actually possible, we should see the genetic code already present with modern day reptiles but we don't. To what reptilian features were you referring, anyway?
quote:
"Apparently, they cast a blind, irreducibly complex eye to the evidence."
Irriducible is correct, you refuse to site any processes which would explain how a scale becomes a feather or genetic material is miraculously introduced into an organism allowing it to transition into another, you simply take it as an act of faith.
A few examples of scientific fraud would be Ernst Haeckel's embryonic recapitulation charts (which may actually still be circulating in children's text books to this day), H.B. Kettlewell's intentional misleading "research" with H.B. Kettlewell, and the well know Pildown man debacle.
quote:
"Again, I feel compelled to point out that if there was evidence that actually overturned evolution, the default position would not be a supernatural one."
Do tell? I am still waiting on an explanation for the Big Bang. :)
quote:
What would be refreshing, and unlikely, would be if these guys would send up a hypothesis that could actually be tested.
And that's what we see you have done with evolution, with all of its unexplained processes, backed by dogmatic assertions. We're still waiting on yours. At least we admit that the evolutionary process is implausible but you continue to hold out because the alternative would be unthinkable. The burden of proof still lies in your camp.
quote:
Intelligent Design is their name and pseudo-science is their game....
A true case of denial from a proverbial glass house dweller. :)
quote:
Put up or shut up.
I don't have to put up but I will shut up. That was so loving, bwt. The Word does say that to argue with a fool would make me one as well, so I must bid you adieu. I will participate with your thread no more. Rant on and console your buddies.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1
|
 |
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2002 : 15:38:12 [Permalink]
|
Archaeopteryx is a true "perching bird" possessing actual feathers, pnuematized vertebrae and pelvis, and a lung system common to birds.
And teeth and claws and fingers and no true wish bone.
That's what transitional means, hot shot, it has some characteristics but not all.
The burden of proof lies with the evolutionist hoping to produce a reptile out of a verifiable bird.
It's a dinosaur not a reptile.
What is the process in which reptilian scales would morph into feathers?
Mutation. There is no real difference between a dinosaur scale and a feather but a slight change in shape. Many dinosaurs had feathers--even the T-Rex had a downy coat when young.
I respectfully ask for another supposed proof of transition.
You don't even know what transition means.
Want to see a transitional species? One with only slight, but very recognizable morphic changes. Look in the mirror. Can you make out what race you are? Look at the people who ride the bus with you. Can you tell that their ancestors came from separate areas? Can you tell who's descended from Africans and who from Asians?
Can you even tell, just from looking, whose ancestors came from Scandinavia and whose from only a short distance away in Italy?
And yet all of these people who look so different are from the same species. They can mate with each other with no difficulty at all. These slight differences are the transision.
If this were actually possible, we should see the genetic code already present with modern day reptiles but we don't.
What are you talking about?
Irriducible (sic)is correct, you refuse to site any processes which would explain how a scale becomes a feather
It's called Natural Selection--don't demand that science be banned from your schools and then claim there is no science.
genetic material is miraculously introduced into an organism allowing it to transition into another, you simply take it as an act of faith.
Or you could drop this faith BS and look for yourself.
Please note that most life on this planet reproduces through sex. The introduction of the males genes to the females-that's where new genetic material comes from. Also note that the genetic material you have isn't completely perfect. Sometimes when it replicates it makes imperfect replicas-this is also "the addition of information."
A few examples of scientific fraud would be …
All exposed by science--not religion.
Do tell? I am still waiting on an explanation for the Big Bang. I am waiting to hear what you think the Big Bang has got to do with natural selection.
And that's what we see you have done with evolution, with all of its unexplained processes,…
What unexplained processes are you talking about?
I'm still waiting to here how a pile of dust becomes an adult man by blowing on it.
backed by dogmatic assertions
No, it's backed by research.
At least we admit that the evolutionary process is implausible but you continue to hold out because the alternative would be unthinkable. The burden of proof still lies in your camp.
You don't even know what the evolutionary process is. The proof has been in front of you for a century and you shut your eyes to it.
I don't have to put up but I will shut up. That was so loving, bwt.
I can give a rat's arse about "loving."
You force your sky fairy down peoples throats, lie to them left and right, and you want them to be loving?! The fact that your nose is left unbroken after the harm you try to do is more loving than you deserve. You should be ashamed of yourself.
The Word does say that to argue with a fool would make me one as well, so I must bid you adieu. I will participate with your thread no more. Rant on and console your buddies.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1
Name calling, and then claiming your god says it's alright. That's the truest Xian loving
|
-------
I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2002 : 19:49:16 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Our friend Kil seems to have gotton a little over-enthusiastic. EVERYBODY HEARD YA THE FIRST, FREAKIN' TIME!!!!
Well, there seems to be a problem with editing. Every time I did an edit it posted as new and left the old one. I was confused when I saw that the edit I did this morning has vanished, until I scrolled down. Another upgrade bug I guess..... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2002 : 20:35:16 [Permalink]
|
Sigh....
quote:
I don't have to put up but I will shut up. That was so loving, bwt.
My intention wasn't to chase Got Something off. Oh well.
Imagin bringing up Piltdown and embryonic recapitulation as examples of how scientists are purposely lying about transitionals. I just about fell out of my chair. You would think a better case might be made for his position if he had brought up some scientific dishonesty from the last half of the last century. I guess he meant it when he said "I don't have to put up...."
I do think a discussion of Intelligent Design has some value, since it is the relatively new creationist model.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2002 : 21:22:53 [Permalink]
|
Drat!
Just when it looks like it might get interesting, they almost always scuttle away, often spewing sour grapes everywhere. Why is this? Do they just want to preach, rather than discuss?
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2002 : 22:04:15 [Permalink]
|
| Here's a thought...what if next time we played along? |
-------
I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2002 : 22:29:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slaterwhat if next time we played along?
You mean say, "I didn't realize the error of my ways, thank you for pointing it out?" |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2002 : 01:25:43 [Permalink]
|
You know, I'm really disappointed that 'got something' took off for the hills. That seems a very cowardly thing to do. I don't think that a good Christian should enter into battle with evil or demon posessed evolutionists, only to quit. Doesn't this leave those poor misguided evolutionists' souls to the eternal fires of hell, and an eternity of torture and damnation?
Oh well, I guess a true Christian doesn't really need to be a moral and loving person--He needs only to make the claim.
Furthermore, I've been looking forward to watching as creationists attempt to defend their belief system, rather than consistently trying to attack science with spurious claims. We spend far too much time defending a position. I'd like to see creationism defended as zealously. Unfortunately, I doubt if that is possible. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
|
|
|
|
Grendel
New Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2002 : 17:18:15 [Permalink]
|
| It seems to me that when creationists bark and whine against the fact of evolution, they display a disturbing lack of faith in their own God. Is He so desperate for your assistance? However "it" is in this world, was "it" not made this way by your God? Were I a believer, I'd be a bit chary of challenging anything -it just might be the work of (furtive glance around Universe...) God. |
Any fool can believe -I want to know. |
|
|
|
PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2002 : 20:42:40 [Permalink]
|
Better a quick end to evangelical creationist visits, I say. Sans a conceivable method for creation, there will inevitably be the skeptic who asks, "Why did God do x?", unanswerable by said creationist, save for appeal to "mysterious ways." I would just as soon avoid that head-banging.
What we need is our own IDer. Their answers and criticisms may not be any more satisfying, but at least those guys go to extreme lengths to avoid use of the "G" word.
|
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 04:44:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slaterwhat if next time we played along?
(hehe) Might be fun. I wonder if they'd fall for it.
Perhaps we should all create sock puppets and give the guy allies. After all, they are a bit outnumbered, here, and we can usually make their arguments better than they can. We've more experience with them.
(chuckle)
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2002 : 04:17:31 [Permalink]
|
Man, I wouldn't even try to play the 'good IDer', and come on this board, even as a prank. You guys would rip me apart!  |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
|
|
|
|
Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2002 : 21:28:30 [Permalink]
|
Speaking of transitionals, this is one of my favorites. A "recent" discovery, from the famous Sue T.Rex fossil on display at the Chicago Field Museum http://www.fmnh.org/sue/default.htm
From the site.....
"Theory: Birds are living dinosaurs
Why do we think so? Bird skeletons share many features with those of meat-eating dinosaurs, like Sue.
Sue's skeleton provided a key piece of the puzzle that links dinosaurs and birds--a wishbone. Although evidence like this continues to mount, not everyone agrees that birds are dinosaurs. A few scientists believe that the two groups had a common reptile ancestor, but evolved independently."
"This photograph shows Sue's wishbone, or furcula (FUR-cue-luh). It is the first one ever found in a T. rex. For scientists who study evolution, it is one of the most exciting discoveries about Sue."
I've posted a few larger shots of Sue at the below link. There's a close up of the wishbone on the last photo. Just click on the first thumbnail to open the gallery....
http://www.pbase.com/mudshark
|
|
|
|
Goodmud
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2002 : 05:25:12 [Permalink]
|
Please explain just how a pile of magic dirt becomes an adult man just by blowing on it?
Please explain how a whole lotta of nothing became something? 0 X 0 = 0 no matter how much time you have! also where did the energy start to move all this mass nothingness. for every effect there must be a cause. 3rd law of motion, 2nd law of thermodynamics(entropy) |
|
|
|
Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2002 : 06:08:09 [Permalink]
|
Biochemisty; DNA got -us- here.
Just a little tickle to get it all going, we'll give you the Nobel prize if you nail it down.
Only one rule applies, - no magic allowed. |
| Edited by - Randy on 12/05/2002 15:12:10 |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
