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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 11/23/2002 : 12:40:03
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quote:
Slater:
To start with John is the English version of the Latin Johannes, which is the name of the Greek God Ioannes whose name in the 1st to 4th Centuries was Oannes. The God Ea (Capricorn), half human half fish, the dichotomy that represents renewed life of God (Zeus). His ceremony was baptism.
Are you making the case that John the Baptist is a mythical creation on the grounds that his name bears a phonetic similarity to that of the Greek god of the house of water? Is not the more likely explanation that John bore the nickname "Oannes" since he promulgated a ritual similar to that found in the worship thereof?
It is known from Josephus that the historical John rejected the pagan “soul-cleansing” interpretation of baptism in favor of the Jewish ritual immersion as a symbol of repentence, not unlike that practiced by the Essenes. It would seem, though, that the later Christian authors reverted to the pagan interpretation.
Of course, it could be simply that John's name is merely a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name “Johanan,” a common enough appellation in those times.
quote:
Slater:
The Jews do have a similar ceremony that dates back to this ceremony from when they were polytheists. However by the 1st Century they were quite distinct. The NT says nothing about any mikveh. But it does talk about baptism -- the Pagan version.
How can you tell the difference in this case? Is it the fact that Mark is written in Greek rather than Hebrew, or something more? As I mentioned above, John's baptism of repentance closely resembles existing Jewish/Essene practices of the day.
To this day, many Jews practice ritual immersion (tevilah) in a natural body of “living water” in their conversion ceremonies. Accordingly to the Halakhah a male convert must be circumcised and then ritually immersed, while a female convert requires only the latter ritual. The ceremony of tevilah has been said to be used for more than merely conversion however. There is some rabbinic commentary indicating that it may be used for redidication and repentance (teshuvah):
The OHR ZARUA mentions that a Mumar who repented and did Teshuvah should immerse himself in a Mikvah.
Jacob J. Staub of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College writes of “tevilah (ritual immersion), in combination with sincere teshuvah (repentance) and a commitment to full ritual observance.”
Finally, we have the words of Maimonides himself signifying the symoblic connection between repentance and baptism, "The person who directs his heart to purify his soul from spiritual impurities, such as iniquitous thoughts and evil notions, becomes clean as soon as he determines in his heart to keep apart from these courses, and bathes his soul in the water of pure knowledge."
All this aside, though, we should probably first address the passages from Josephus on this "Johanan the immerser" fellow.
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-- tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2002 : 18:57:30 [Permalink]
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I am not saying that there weren't any Johns.
I am not saying that there weren't any Baptists.
I am not saying that there weren't any Johns who were Baptists.
In fact I'm quite sure that there were plenty.
I'm also sure that they weren't Jewish.
The Mikvah is vaguely related to baptism. It can probably be traced to Baptism in it's earliest polytheistic roots. However by the first century CE the Jews had been monotheistic for a considerable number of centuries and the Mikvah had changed to suit their changing belief system.
However it is a mistake to hold a solely Biblo-centric view of the area. There were (and still are) many more Semitic peoples in the area than just the Jews. Their ceremonies did not disappear simply because the Jewish version of them evolved away.
The NT does not say that Jesus had a Mikvah. The ceremony it describes is not a Mikvah. There were certainly Mikvahs at the time, in every Jewish village. He could have had one with no problem at all.
But he did not.
It says that Jesus was Baptized. It describes the Baptismal ceremony. A very common ceremony of the period. Favored by all Mithrains and Zoroastrians (as in Magi) And if there was any question whatsoever that this was not a Mikvah the Baptist is given the very name of the God who the ceremony honors.
Yes, Baptism and Mikveh are similar. Similar but not the same at this period. The argument you are espousing is that the writers called a Mikveh a Baptism by mistake. That would be the same argument as 'when the NT said that Magi visited the infant Jesus it really meant Rabbis.' The similarities between Magi and Rabbis are as great (and for exactly the same reason) as between Baptism and Mikveh.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2002 : 09:28:01 [Permalink]
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Our species generates a number of common themes, among which is ritual immersion. Be that as it may, baptism seems to stand closer to immersion in the Ganges than to immersion in the mikvah.
quote:
ALLAHABAD, India, Jan 15 (Reuter) - The world's largest gathering of people began at the weekend when a quarter of a million Hindu faithful stepped into India's holy Ganges river to wash away their sins. Men, women and children marched down the banks of the slow flowing river in the northern city of Allahabad into hired boats which took them to the holy confluence of the Ganges, Yamuna and Saraswati rivers. There, in a centuries-old Hindu ritual, they braved chill weather and thick fog to immerse themselves. Most wore clothing but some like the Naga Hindu congregation took it all off.
More than 45 million Hindus are expected to take a dip during the 40-day festival which began on Saturday.
Bathing at the holy confluence is considered sacred at any time of the year. But either the great ``Kumbh'' or lesser ``Ardh Kumbh'' (half Kumbh) festival, set by astrologers, falls only once every six years and is considered the most auspicious times for bathing. This year the Ardh Kumbh began at the weekend.
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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