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Denise
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
 Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:06:55
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Why are the definitions so muddled. Why can't atheists and agnostics make up their minds?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:28:07 [Permalink]
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An atheist is someone who lacks a belief in god. Theism is about belief. An agnostic lacks knowledge of god(s). Gnosis is about knowledge. So, one can be both an agnostic and a theist, or an agnostic and an atheist.
There. I've made up my mind. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Denise
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:35:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
An atheist is someone who lacks a belief in god. Theism is about belief. An agnostic lacks knowledge of god(s). Gnosis is about knowledge. So, one can be both an agnostic and a theist, or an agnostic and an atheist.
There. I've made up my mind.
Good for you, but other people still quibble with the definitions. To some people atheism means denying there is a god- or saying there is a god at all. Why does the public tend to think that atheists "hate god?" |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:38:27 [Permalink]
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Because those people hate reality.
Seriously, it is strange that they start from the idea that there is a god, so if you don't believe in it, that must mean that you hate god. I don't hate anything. I try not to believe in anything, so how could I hate anything? 
quote:
Good for you, but other people still quibble with the definitions. To some people atheism means denying there is a god- or saying there is a god at all. Why does the public tend to think that atheists "hate god?"
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Denise
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:43:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Because those people hate reality.
Seriously, it is strange that they start from the idea that there is a god, so if you don't believe in it, that must mean that you hate god. I don't hate anything. I try not to believe in anything, so how could I hate anything?
quote:
Good for you, but other people still quibble with the definitions. To some people atheism means denying there is a god- or saying there is a god at all. Why does the public tend to think that atheists "hate god?"
Yes, I can't imagine hating god - well the pure, sweet, loving god often praised. If there was an actual god like that I would be the first in line to praise him. Instead, we get the God of the Books, certainly not up to the ideal that many of the followers hold for him. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:44:52 [Permalink]
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The denying that there is a god is the definition that comes from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It isactually a slight against Atheists. The implication of it is that there IS a god and Atheists refuse to admit it.
Atheists (most) do not deny the existence of god because they have never been shown a god to accept or deny. What Atheists reject is the CLAIM that god exists. They reject it because they know that the claimants have no way to posses the information that they pretend to have. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:53:24 [Permalink]
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Well said, Slater.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Denise
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 10:15:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
The denying that there is a god is the definition that comes from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It isactually a slight against Atheists. The implication of it is that there IS a god and Atheists refuse to admit it.
Atheists (most) do not deny the existence of god because they have never been shown a god to accept or deny. What Atheists reject is the CLAIM that god exists. They reject it because they know that the claimants have no way to posses the information that they pretend to have.
And why does modern definition not differ? I understand the roots, but why do atheists not agree? |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 11:09:30 [Permalink]
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| 'Cuz they don't obey my commands! |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 11:26:36 [Permalink]
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> To some people atheism means denying there is a god- or saying there
> is a god at all.
If you say that atheism means only that, then you are dealing with a straw-man version of the term. Many dictionaries even have the "denies the existence of God or gods" definition for the term "atheist"! That "denying" suggests that atheists are "denying" the supposed "fact" of the existence of God or gods!
All atheists lack a god belief, but there are some who do not think that there are no gods. There is a difference between "There is no..." and "I do not believe in..." |
Antie. DIES GAUDII.
Facies Fabulosarum Feminarum
If you can name all six of the females in the picture above without looking up their names, and you can read the Latin phrase, pat yourself on the back. You're smart. |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 11:32:48 [Permalink]
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Throughout the history of mankind, god(s) have always been the explanation for the unexplainable. As the unexplainable became explained over time, mankind (collective us) made an effort to combine all our gods into one (albeit, with a split personality across our predominate religions) to explain an ever-decreasing realm of unexplained.
However, we have proof of a higher power. Ever witness a super nova or try to escape the reach of a black hole. Mankind's biggest mistake is to anthropomorphize this power into some kind of personal “rich uncle” or “big daddy” concept that has a personal concern for each of us.
For the foreseeable future, there will always be an unknown. And you can call it “God” if you like, I just prefer that you not dress it up in women's clothing. I recognize that in addition to “known” truths, there is an “unrevealed” truth in the unknown. So, for me, I comfortably say that truth (known and unknown) is god, nothing more nothing less. In that way, I think I am at least consistent with history. I've never given myself a label as to atheist or agnostic. Certainly compared to what most common folk call god, I classify myself as an atheist. What do you think I am?
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You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 11:32:49 [Permalink]
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Atheism is not a belief system. It is the absence of a specific belief--- that of deities. Therefore you cannot say that all Atheists think one way or another about anything except they lack of belief in any gods. Because it is not a category that says what they are, only what they are not. It gives no other information about the individual.
To say that a person is a Christian conveys a great deal of information about what they think on any number of subjects.
To say they are an Atheist does not.
I have given you the modern definition of the word. It differs diametrically from the Catholic. What else are you asking for?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 12:10:00 [Permalink]
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A higher power than what? Why call it god(s)? Why not either call it what it is or say that you don't know what it is?
quote:
Originally posted by chainsaw
However, we have proof of a higher power. Ever witness a super nova or try to escape the reach of a black hole.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 13:36:56 [Permalink]
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You're right. I didn't mean to use a term that had a lot of baggage. Maybe substitute "awesome" or "gigantic" for "higher"?
I don't mean this to be a theistic position, but you may differ with me. I'm simply describing a cosmological power (or call it energy, or force, or whatever) that is organizing the universe as we observe it that we must recognize. Higher?, well it certainly overwhelms by many factors of 10 any thing we have at our disposal. Whatever it is, the forces of the universe control us, we do not control the universe.
The key point for me is why put our human characteristics on it. Historically that has been mankind's knee jerk reaction.
So, I still consider myself an athiest but feel free to call me something else. |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 13:57:04 [Permalink]
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Chainsaw,
You sound like what I would call a pantheist. Pantheism is one of the milder forms of theism, to say the least. Most self-described pantheists I have encountered are fundamentally indistinguishable from atheists 99.5% of the time. Pantheism really has no arguments, per se, that take a wildly irrational, unreasonable position. Again, most pantheists I've known have been content to express non-confrontational wonder and go about their business.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
| Edited by - PhDreamer on 11/25/2002 13:58:27 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 14:10:26 [Permalink]
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| Yeah. I see why people get confused, and I know that I don't have THE answer here, but if you think something is god, then that makes you a theist, not an atheist. Don't it? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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