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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2002 : 02:01:08
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TokyoDreamer presented this question in the DJRE? thread, so I thought I would start a side discussion:quote:
but since when is Confucianism a religion?
What is the difference between a religion and a philosophy? Is a supernatural being necessary for a religion? If so, certain types of Buddhism must be philosophies, though most people would agree that Buddhism is a religion.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 02:17:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
TokyoDreamer presented this question in the DJRE? thread, so I thought I would start a side discussion:quote:
but since when is Confucianism a religion?
What is the difference between a religion and a philosophy? Is a supernatural being necessary for a religion? If so, certain types of Buddhism must be philosophies, though most people would agree that Buddhism is a religion.
Funny you should mention that. I don't have a lot of time right now but will write something off line and try to post later. Just this one little bit of info:
When I took Orential Philosophy many years ago at LACC, my teacher BTW was a Buddhist monk from Viet Nam, we were taught that Taoism although called a religion also was actually more of a philosophy. So you are right to question this. And on the No god e-group from time to time the question comes up. When I mention I'm a Buddhist AND an atheist 1/2 the people get so up tight saying that being a Buddhist means it's spiritual therefore a religion. So for now I would say it's a matter of how one sees it and what they understand of the 'religion'/ philosophy. Just like the people who argue atheist vs. agnostic. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 04:46:49 [Permalink]
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Some New Age friends of mine insist that they're not "religious." They all believe in God. When I look in the dictionary, that tells me religion is how one organizes his beliefs about god. I asked them why we have the phrase "organized religion?" That's what I think they're really saying is that they don't belong to any organized religion, but they have their own personally made-up religion. I think that in common usage, the word religion means a belief in god(s).
But Tim Gorski of the North Texas Church of Freethought has other ideas worth considering: http://www.church.freethought.org/0012.superstition.html
'Now we ought not to consider a dictionary as being any more authoritative than the Bible or any other alleged sacred scripture. Dictionaries are field guides to usage and not rule books for language. But here's the definition for religion in my Funk and Wagnalls paperback dictionary:
"The beliefs, attitudes, emotions, behavior, etc., constituting man's relationship with the powers and principles of the universe, especially with a deity or deities." [Funk and Wagnalls Standard Dictionary, Harper paperbacks, "1980, Lippincott & Crowell, Publishers Revised Gazeteer "1983 by Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc, New York, pp 676-677]
I think this captures the idea of religion as involving all those things that frustrate an objective, scientific analysis. Yes, the god business is there. But it's clearly secondary to the theme of people grappling with and trying to make some sense of the human condition.' |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 07:25:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
What is the difference between a religion and a philosophy? Is a supernatural being necessary for a religion?
I would think that any involvment of a supernatural element, whether a god, spirits, magic, etc. in a belief system, ethical system, or philosophy would qualify it as a religion.
I've read that Confucianism involves some rituals, but I don't know if the belief is that these rituals have some kind of supernatural result. If this is the case, then I would probably agree that Confucianism is a religion.
I don't think I agree with Tim Gorski or his F & W. From the look of it, their definition would make the words ethics, philosophy, and religion completely interchangeable and redundant, and the supernatural is a critical component of religion, but not ethics or philosophy.
[spelling]
[edit #2: The F & W is worded in such a way that Secular Humanism fits the definition of religion. I definitely disagree with that.] |
| Edited by - Tokyodreamer on 12/10/2002 07:28:10 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 08:11:25 [Permalink]
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I should probably also say that I wonder if Tim Gorski, M.D. is stretching the definition so that he and his friends can have a church for whatever reason good or bad.
quote:
I don't think I agree with Tim Gorski or his F & W. From the look of it, their definition would make the words ethics, philosophy, and religion completely interchangeable and redundant, and the supernatural is a critical component of religion, but not ethics or philosophy.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/10/2002 08:12:02 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 08:25:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
TokyoDreamer presented this question in the DJRE? thread, so I thought I would start a side discussion:quote:
but since when is Confucianism a religion?
What is the difference between a religion and a philosophy? Is a supernatural being necessary for a religion? If so, certain types of Buddhism must be philosophies, though most people would agree that Buddhism is a religion.
Religion is a sub-set of philosiphy. Religion usually implies the existance of a God belief or belief in supernatural forces that can be called for aid. (Shintoism is ancestor worship and qualifies as a religion.)
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 08:45:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Religion is a sub-set of philosophy. Religion usually implies the existance of a God belief or belief in supernatural forces ...
I think of religion as teleology predicated upon (or effected through) supernatural intervention(s). |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 10:01:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Religion is a sub-set of philosophy. Religion usually implies the existance of a God belief or belief in supernatural forces ...
I think of religion as teleology predicated upon (or effected through) supernatural intervention(s).
I suppose this would be true both of the "constant meddling" Bible literalists and the "initial push" theists. "Constant meddling" would be those who say that the supernatural force is constantly directing, controlling and ordering the universe while "initial push" thiests are those who say that the supernatural force provided the spark for the BB (as the question of what existed before the BB is currently unknowable) and then just let things fly on their own. Although most teleologists oppose mechanistic interpretations which rely solely on organic development or natural causation, "initial push"ers fully accept solely organic development and natural causation.
If the mechanics are ever worked out to explain the conditions before the BB and the forces at work, "initial push"ers would then shift the supernatural being futher up the chain to an unexplainable precursor to the explained phenomenon. Some of us have more realistic Gods who are interested in helping personal development rather than screwing around with natural forces.
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