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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2002 : 14:43:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
Since no REAL Jewish king was overthrown by his people in that time period, it is logical to conclude that Bar-Sarapion was not referring to an actual king, but to Jesus, "king of the Jews". So yet again, this is a reference to Jesus before Constantine.
To what time period are you referring, and how do you know? Given the (errant) references to Socrates and Pythagoras, one would think that the best fit might be the assasination of King Amon, which was followed by the destruction of Jerusalem. But you assert that it is "logical to conclude" otherwise. What are your reasons? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 17:00:13 [Permalink]
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| Sorry can't open pages 5&6. What are you talking about? |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 19:17:23 [Permalink]
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darwin alogos, I see that you just now (12/17/2002 at 19:10:42) edited your post on the previous page (originally posted on 12/15/2002 at 15:57:22). It is customary here to state why an edit is made if there is at least one response aferwards, so people will be able to act on the updated information without having to reread the entire post.
--> edited to add: DA, you edited again at 20:54:18, same day, again without annotation. I don't want to be too picky, but I would appreciate it if you told us what exactly you changed. Was it a formatting or a content change? <-- |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 12/18/2002 02:37:40 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 07:25:20 [Permalink]
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For Slater:
quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
Written by Lucian of Samosata in the 2nd Century A.D.:
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account...You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods, alike, regarding them merely as common property."
This is a reference to the existance of Christians before Constantine.
Quoted by Origen in the 3rd Century A.D. (Originally written by Celsus in the 2nd Century A.D.):
"Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god."
This is another reference to Jesus dating from before Constantine.
Written by Mara Bar-Serapion of Syria, between 70 A.D. and 200 A.D.:
"What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. ...Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."
Since no REAL Jewish king was overthrown by his people in that time period, it is logical to conclude that Bar-Sarapion was not referring to an actual king, but to Jesus, "king of the Jews". So yet again, this is a reference to Jesus before Constantine.
And the Encyclopedia Brittanica sums up the history of the "Did Jesus Really Exist" argument very nicely:
"...in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 10:52:12 [Permalink]
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Thank you Boron and TD
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Infamous, Lucian of Samosata is writing about Christians not Jesus. Before Constantine there were Christians. A "Christ" was "an anointed one" which is a title and not a person. Being only a title it was applied to a whole class of god/demigod and even as a Greek translation of the Jewish word "messiah."
Apollonius of Tyana headed a religion devoted to the god Christna who was a "Christ" and, as RD pointed out in one of his quotes, the god Serapis was a "Christ." The Dionysian, Orphic and Pythagorean movements all had "Christ" figures.
There were Christians before Constantine but nothing to show that they had ever heard of Jesus
Origen like all the early church fathers exists only in books that come from after Constantine. Origen comes straight from Eusebius.
This in itself would not be enough to raise suspicion except all the dated bibles, all the art and all the churches come from this time and after too. All the physical evidence goes back to the begining of the fourth century and stops.
Mara Bar-Serapion is just too big a stretch to even consider. It doesn't mention Jesus, and talks about a king-which Jesus was not.
Encyclopedia Brittanica shows why I don't buy a copy of the set. Can anything be more ridiculous than this puerile Christian blather?
First in "Ancient times" the historicity was very much disputed. The Mithrains disputed it, none more fervently than the Emperor Julian did. It stopped being disputed when it became church/state policy to murder anyone who did. In the 18th, 19th, 20th Centuries it again became possible to honestly investigate without loss of life. Even in the 17th you were dead meat if you dared question. There is the implication that such doubting of the historicity of Jesus was abandoned 100 years ago and nothing could be further from the truth. Who wrote this foolishness, it sounds like a Xian Apologist.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 11:05:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
As to the other things (walking on water; multiplying fishes; raising the dead; improving wine), they can all be successfully explained in the context of modern physics--without having to resort to the 'charged' word "miracle".
Any such naive distortion of 'modern physics' will likewise 'explain' unicorns, the Daoine Sidhe and suicidal pigs.
Sorry. You are wrong. While [very] Modern Physics might explain unicorns and flying pigs, that would only be hypothetical unicorns and/or flying pigs. (I assume that u meant "flying" rather than the odd "suicidal".) Such things---unicorns and/or flying pigs---have never, to my knowledge, been observed. What is a "Daoine sidhe"?? Whatever it is, the same comment applies.
Similarly, such things -- the virgin birth, the resurrection, and suicidal pigs (see Matthew 8:24) -- have never been observed. Whether or not they were fabricated or imagined is another thing entirely. So we find your "hypothetical" Jesus appropriately classified with the equally "hypothetical" unicorn, and suicidal pigs. That is hardly a compelling argument for historicity. The NT does not even rise to the level of decent fiction, unlike the Daoine Sidhe - if the Daoine Sidhe be, indeed, fiction.
From Matt. 8:24 (at http://www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/Matthew/8.html ), I get:quote:
And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
After a search, I now know what the Daoine Sidhe are (supposed to be). A few months ago I ran accross an interesting Physics concept which would explain these folk as well as (--and much more importantly--) some very, very peculiar anomalous phonemena concerning meteorites. I will try to find the reference---although it has nothing to do with religion.
As to the "virgin birth"---I am between an "I don't know" agnostic and an actual disbeliever. As to the resurection---you may recall that I am utterly skeptical that the execution of Jesus could have occurred, a belief that has been attacked virulently in this thread as well as in Part II, DJRE. No execution implies no resurection. (Ahem.)
(Edited to add a link to K.James version of Matt. ch.8)
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 12/18/2002 11:12:03 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 11:22:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Quite right. It should have been 8:32 - my apologies. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
| Edited by - ConsequentAtheist on 12/18/2002 11:22:48 |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 11:29:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
. . . if the Daoine Sidhe be, indeed, fiction.
Maybe not. An Australian physicist (--Dr. Robert Foot of the University of Melbourne--) has a theory which is used to explain some strange anomalies----to include the oddities of the (posited) asteroid strike in Siberia (--Tunguska--) early in the last Century.
The news story is here: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mirror-matter-02a.html
Who could be other than skeptical? I spent some time thinking about the concept he proposes. (He has a book--which only served to increase my skepticism.  ) Nonetheless, I began to become increasingly less skeptical. Your reference to the Daoine Sidhe (--I suspect some certain level of validity in most-all of Celtic mythologies--) is yet another data point (for me) indicating that maybe--just maybe--the idea of "Mirror Matter" could be very real (albeit, invisible).
(Sorry: All this no doubt belongs in the Astronomy Forum---but for the Daoine Sidhe.) |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 11:31:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
As to the "virgin birth"---I am between an "I don't know" agnostic and an actual disbeliever.
Given what I've read from you, I would think such disbelief inappropriate. Be that as it may, we're moving far off topic. Perhaps you would like to start a "Quantum Defense of Christology" thread? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 11:43:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Maybe not. An Australian physicist (--Dr. Robert Foot of the University of Melbourne--) has a theory ... (Sorry: All this no doubt belongs in the Astronomy Forum---but for the Daoine Sidhe.)
I'd suggest Humor. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 11:49:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Quite right. It should have been 8:32 - my apologies.
Ah, yes:quote:
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Unfortunately I did my I.Explorer page-search on "pigs" instead of "swine". But what is so mysterious about this? What needs explaning??
Or do u not believe that there are psycological entities/LifeForms just as there are physical entities/LifeForms? (There are fairly reputable philosophies which hold that there are no such things as physical entities/LifeForms--that all is psychological/mental. )
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For Slater's sake: What wanton destruction of private property! (The pigs.) Just to save the community from a couple of extremely dangerous 'wackos'. Verses 33 & 34 add:quote:
33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.
34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.
No wonder----an entire herd of pigs who would rather drown than be taken over by a gaggle of "evil spirits" (--bad, harmful, hurtful psychological entities/LifeForms--)!
(Presumably the pigs, as does much of humanity, believed in repetitive lives and, thus, did not mind dying. I am, in fact, reminded of a line from "Dark Side of The Moon")
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 12:13:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Maybe not. An Australian physicist (--Dr. Robert Foot of the University of Melbourne--) has a theory ... (Sorry: All this no doubt belongs in the Astronomy Forum---but for the Daoine Sidhe.)
I'd suggest Humor.
It's been some months. Too bad I couldn't find the other reviews--maybe from JPL or NASA Hqs.
As I read more and thought more, a more appropriate forum than Humor would one dealing with Terror. The implications of the theory, if correct, are truly chilling.
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Why should I (or anyone) believe in the Virgin Birth? (Or "disbelieve", for that matter?) That concept really and truly sounds like one appended later on in history--with no basis other than the labeling of sexual activity as "dirty" and that Jesus, as the "Son of God", had to be "pure", "non-dirty", "non-polluted".
There is a Sufi tale wherein someone criticized the weirdly shaped camel--an obvious product of poor design. The Sufi responds that the criticism is not aimed at the poor camel but at the Creator (Allah: Sufis are Muslim).
I believe that the Virgin Birth is a similar criticism of the Creator (whether that be God or Evolutionary Processes) and is, in itself, disgusting. Perhaps those who find our sexual processes so repugnant/dirty would rather that we go back to being earthworms (with one gender) or amoeba (with no gender).  |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 13:51:15 [Permalink]
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Slater claims: quote:
Origen like all the early church fathers exists only in books that come from after Constantine. Origen comes straight from Eusebius.
To Infamous welcome to the weird wacky world of Slater .Classical scholars right this moment are pounding on his door to get the bread crumbs that fall off this "Scholar of Scholars" table.You see the reason their doing that is because NO ONE ELSE HAS THIS INFORMATION THAT COMPLETELY REWRITES 300 YEARS OF HISTORY! |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 12/18/2002 13:54:40 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 14:54:51 [Permalink]
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Hang on here CO.
The Sidhe (pronounced "she") are the Tuatha DéDanann. They are the Fairies. There's no quantum physics or meteors involved. They are imaginary...as in "fairy tales." |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 15:15:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
They are imaginary...as in "fairy tales."
Prove it, Bwca breath!  |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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