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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
 Posted - 01/03/2003 : 14:17:04
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My wife and I just spent a fantastic week in San Diego visiting our son, daughter-in-law, and two week old grandson. Much of the time was spent watching, holding, and caring for the baby.
One of the things you'll notice with a child that age is what is now called the 'Moro reflex'. In response to being starled, a baby under the age of 6 to 8 weeks will fling out its arms and legs and make grasping motions with its hands. It's an odd response, and one that makes no sense unless one pictures the small, startled ape clinging ventro-ventral to his mother as she moves through the trees. It is my understanding that the Moro reflex is, in fact, common among neonatal primates. The evolutionist has no trouble recognizing its occurrence in human infants as a vestigial trait, while the ID proponent is left to wonder about a seemingly superfluous, if not outright stupid, piece of design.
He's an incredibly cute kid. 
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 15:47:37 [Permalink]
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It's essential to primate infants. If you've ever picked up a baby gorilla you know that it's almost impossible to put them down. Sometimes you are stuck until they fall asleep. In humans it isn't even the full Moro reflex because our motor systems aren't developed enough --we are born too early, compaired to the other primates. It's hardly more than flopping around.
There are a number of things left over in us from our times in the trees that I find interesting. The fact that we like to sleep in a bed and don't just lie down any where we please. The fact that we don't fall out of bed, even when we toss and turn. The fact that, if we can, we will usually prefer to have our bed rooms on an upper floor of a building. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 16:48:50 [Permalink]
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| Very cool observation, CA. Thanks for sharing. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 18:13:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
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There are a number of things left over in us from our times in the trees that I find interesting...... The fact that, if we can, we will usually prefer to have our bed rooms on an upper floor of a building.
Slater, you da man!
I'd never, ever made that connection. But you would have to be blind (fundie) not to see it!)
I'm in the very fortunate position of enjoying our 9mth old, the similarities twixt Elizabeth and our tree dwelling cousins stand out so far, I can't help wonder how all fundie parents with a nine year old can convince him/her " we ain't never beeen no monkey " when (s)he watches the newborn sibling grow up!!
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"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 21:18:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
The fact that we don't fall out of bed, even when we toss and turn.
Speak for yourself, I've fallen out of a bed 9 feet off the ground and bruised my skull, while at scout camp.
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Back on topic:
Isn't there also the reflex for infants to hold their breath underwater, until a certain age? Anyone remember why this is, I forget. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 23:15:59 [Permalink]
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I've fallen out of a bed 9 feet off the ground
You're too evolved for your own good. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 00:39:53 [Permalink]
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We have our bedrooms in the upper levels of our houses because we evolved from apes?
There are many othere explanation that seem far more likely to me. Like the fact that we like to have our privat bedrooms as far away from the visitor frequented rooms (near the ground floor entrance) as possible.
The bed explanation also misses that not everyone uses beds. From sleeping backs to japanese futons there are many widespread alternatives for beds.
How would someone go about proving such theories anyway? |
To any insufficiently advanced person technolgy becomes indistinguishable from magic. |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 02:34:33 [Permalink]
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I don't know, you people see a little bit of evidence(no matter who says it) and you construe it all as fact. Evolution as you all know takes millions of years. Would not the jump between humans and primates involve a conscience rather than a simple reflex motion? I fail to see the connection as of yet.
This is what I do not get, it is cool to be an atheist, or a sceptic. One does not have to put their butt on the line...they can just rip apart other peoples ideas. I can not just side with the majority. Find out if that baby experiment is true with many case studies before everybody believes it is true. It very well might be but common....a little evidence. Get a grip before you make the connection. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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riptor
Skeptic Friend
Germany
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 03:17:07 [Permalink]
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Fireball, there was no "jump" between apes and humans, but a slow process of evolution, dividing those groups of animals. Some simian features were not "evolved away", some were. You're forgetting that evolution is all random.
And that "baby experiment" is a long-known fact. CA is just one who said that this might be a connection to the apes. And he stated (correctly as it seems) that creationists can't explain it. |
Hail the Big bearded Jellyfish up in heaven above. |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 10:08:12 [Permalink]
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sorry about the rant....had a good night at the bar last night though.... |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 11:41:35 [Permalink]
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We have our bedrooms in the upper levels of our houses because we evolved from apes?
No, we have them up there because we are apes.
we like to have our privat bedrooms as far away from the visitor frequented rooms (near the ground floor entrance) as possible.
The social activities-living room, dining room, etc., are on the ground floor for the same reason. We are great apes. All social activities happen on the ground with chimps and gorillas. Have you ever seen a single family multi storied home that had the living room on the second floor?
From sleeping backs to japanese futons there are many widespread alternatives for beds
Actually sleeping bags and futons are much closer in design to what gorillas use than traditional western beds.
As I write my dog is asleep on the floor by the front door and my cat is asleep on the window sill--I would never sleep in places like that. But I only sleep in the same sorts of places that apes like to sleep in.
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you people see a little bit of evidence(no matter who says it) and you construe it all as fact.
Beats the hell out of deciding what facts are without any evidence.
Evolution as you all know takes millions of years.
No it doesn't. It's happening all the time.
Would not the jump between humans and primates involve a conscience rather than a simple reflex motion? I fail to see the connection as of yet.
The Moro reflex is vital to the survival of infant great apes. It is completely useless in human infants. Useless and yet all human infants have it. The point isn't that we evolved into having it for no reason. The point is that we evolved to have it for a reason and then continued to evolve to a condition where it is superflous.
(Skeptics) …do not have to put their butt on the line...they can just rip apart other peoples ideas. ..Get a grip before you make the connection.
Get a grip on yourself. The experiments with babies have been conducted many times over the years. This is science we are talking about people put their butts on the line every time they rip apart other peoples ideas. Only in religion can you be proved wrong and still continue to make unfounded claims.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 12:14:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater:
Have you ever seen a single family multi storied home that had the living room on the second floor?
I have seen several. Houses that are built on the side of a hill sloping down have the entrance, living room, kitchen, and dining room on the second floor. The bedrooms are on the first floor. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 15:54:49 [Permalink]
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And do you feel comfortable in them, or are they something you get used to?
This upper floor bedroom isn't a law of nature. You don't "have to" do it. It's just something that "feels" right. It is something that is the norm in building design. There are exceptions of course but they are rare and not usually successful. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 14:02:39 [Permalink]
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I agree with Lars here: the bedrooms are farthest from the common area, which is near the entryway. In most houses, since it is easier to build up rather than dig down farther, the bedrooms end up on the second or third floors.
I do not recall ever being uncomfortable (rather, I thought it a good idea) in the houses build downhill.
I sleep on a matress rather than the floor because it is more comfortable (softer). I use a box spring for the same reason. I use a bed frame (holds my bed above the floor) for two reasons: it makes the bed easier to move, if I so desire, and it provides a convenient storage space. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 14:33:03 [Permalink]
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| The reason the common area exists at all is because we are apes. The reason it is on the first floor is the same, as is the reason you are comfortable lying on something soft rather than on the hard ground. That's why apes make nests for themselves that are rasied and soft. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 23:26:51 [Permalink]
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Hey, how about a little compromise here. Just maybe, the truth of the reason bedrooms tend to be on the upper floor, or farthest away from the general social areas lies somewhere in the middle.
Slater is correct. We are social animals, and higher primates tend to socialize in neutral areas with easy access, though we are more exposed. We are stronger in numbers, and less vulnerable. When we sleep, we are more vulnerable, and tend to move to less accessible areas. Perhaps, much of what we consider our right to privacy is an evolved trait that tends toward personal security.
On the other hand, we have learned to control our environment, (to a point), rather than our environment controling us. We can easily alter some traits to increase our personal happiness. For instance, we live in a two story home. We usually sleep upstairs for several reasons. Primarily, it is more isolated from the active world, and therefore more quiet, (no one walking on wooden floors above you). Next, because of original design, it is more convenient when considering facilities such as the bathrooms, (we have only a half bath downstairs). And, upstairs is generally warmer in the winter, and easier to heat efficiently. But, we will often turn the upstairs A/C down in the summer, and live quite comfortably in the downstairs den. The weather is incredibly hot and humid in August, and this habit of sleeping in the den significantly reduces our utility bill, and adds to our comfort, since we sleep in the daytime.
So, from personal experience, Boron and Lars are also correct, but I might add that the den is the most isolated downstairs room. Therefore, we have still chosen the most secure place to stay when we are the most vulnerable.
And, why would anyone want to argue that the grasping movements of helpless infants cannot be evolved or designed traits? It seems to me that grasping onto an adult of the species is a good survival strategy regardless of how it came to be. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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