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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 21:41:58
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Sorry, DA. I deleted your topic on accident. Please use this one instead.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. -Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 22:36:59 [Permalink]
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Ok Phd quote: Intelligent Design:
Intelligent Design is a scientific theory that intelligent causes are responsible for the origin of the universe and of life and its diversity. It holds that design is empirically detectable in nature, and particularly in living systems.
Intelligent Design is an intellectual movement that includes a scientific research program for investigating intelligent causes and that challenges naturalistic explanations of origins which currently drive science education and research.
DA:To deny ID you must refute all analogical reasoning.To Phd perhaps you could enlighten us to some "irreducible complex" things created by natural processes?
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/03/2003 22:39:49 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 23:11:18 [Permalink]
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Actually, my comment in the other thread was something of a taunt. I was daring you, basically, to mention any allegedly irreducibly complex structures. In any case, I think that's putting the cart before ye olde horse. I think we need to start with how we recognize teleology given we aren't privy to the mind of the designer or his methods. The common answers have always struck me as exceedingly homo-centric. Basically, if it's not something we can design and build ourselves in an afternoon in the garage, there's no way it could have evolved over millions of years.
Another problem is ID theories run the gamut from Discovery Institute's de facto creationism to Behe's 'God created the flagellum but evolution was responsible for everything else' brand. Where do you stand?
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. -Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 23:18:20 [Permalink]
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I'll get back to you Phd,but check this out quote: Purpose of the Prize
How does nature's genetic programming achieve such long sequences of highly functional decision-node selections?
By what mechanism does biological nature set its algorithmic switch settings?
How do so many biochemical pathways get integrated into one coherent, unified, and sophisticated metabolic process?
"The Origin-of-Life Prize" ® is being offered to stimulate research into chaos, complexity, information, probability, self-organization, and artificial life/intelligence theories as they relate directly to biochemical and molecular biological reality. The Foundation wishes to encourage the pursuit of natural-process explanations and mechanisms of initial "gene" emergence within nature. The subject of interest is the genesis of primordial functional information itself rather than its physico-chemical matrix of retention and transmission. Bioinformation fits into the category of "prescriptive information" ("instruction," rather than mere probabilistic combinatorics [Abel, 2000, 2002]). By what mechanisms do stochastic ensembles acquire instructive/integrative potential? In other words, what are the processes whereby random biopolymeric sequences self-organize into indirect, functional code?
Central questions of interest relate to the definition and nature of "genetic instructions" and "biomessage." Is genetic recipe adequately represented and described by "mutual entropy" (shared, correlative uncertainty between transmitter and receiver)? At what point and by what processes do "biofunction" and "biosystem" enter into the chemical evolution of bioinformation?
What is a reasonable, empirically-accountable definition of "minimal life"?
http://www.us.net/life/ quote:
The Origin-of-Life Prize ®
Last updated January, 2003
Description and Purpose of the Prize
"The Origin-of-Life Prize" ® (hereafter called "the Prize") consists of $1.35 Million (USD) paid directly to the winner(s). The Prize will be awarded for proposing a highly plausible mechanism for the spontaneous rise of genetic instructions in nature sufficient to give rise to life. To win, the explanation must be consistent with empirical biochemical and thermodynamic concepts as further delineated herein, and be published in a well-respected, peer-reviewed science journal(s).
The one-time Prize will be paid to the winner(s) as a twenty-year annuity in hopes of discouraging theorists' immediate retirement from productive careers. The annuity consists of $67,500.00 (U.S.) per year for twenty consecutive years, totalling 1.35 million dollars in payments.
The ability of the Foundation to underwrite these payments and to administer the Project is monitored by the well-known accounting firm of Young, Brophy and Company, Certified Public Accountants.
Formal application by submitters is required to win. Submitters must expressly consent to abide by all terms and conditions of the Prize before judging of their paper(s) can begin.
Topic relates to: Rules for The Origin of Life Prize; The Gene Emergence Project; The Origin of Genetic Instructions Prize; Chemical Evolution; Prebiotic Evolution; Abiogenesis; Self-replication; Self-organization; Auto-catalysis; Mutual Catalysis; Abiotic Synthesis; Protobiont; Protocell; Protometabolism; Primordial Milieu; Astrobiology; Exobiology; RNA World; Protein World; Coevolution; Biopoesis; Biogenesis; Lipid world; Homochirality; Bilipid; Self-ordering; Complexity Theory; Artificial Life; Alife; Minimalist Genomes; Minimal Genomes; Code Origin; Genetic Code Theory; Protogene Theory; Minigene; Mini Gene; Clay Matrix; Mineral Adsorption; Bioinformation Theory; Semiotics; Biomessage Theory; Message Theory; SETI; Emergent Properties; Initial Gene Emergence; Biological Information Theory; Aperiodic Specified Complexity; Specified Aperiodicity; Molecular evolution; Messenger Molecules; Information Theory; Chaos Theory; Function Theory; Biofunction Theory; Instruction Theory; Linguistic Theory; Irreducible Complexity; Biopolymers; Thermophiles; GARD; Extremophiles; Hyperthermophiles; Archaea; Prokaryotes; Neural Nets; Decision Theory; Artificial Intelligence; AI; Polarized light from neutron stars.
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Copyright © 1998-2002 THE GENE EMERGENCE PROJECT®
The Origin-of-Life Prize ®
is offered through
The Gene Emergence Project ®
of The Origin-of-Life Foundation, Inc. ®
life@us.net
Watch for updates here on the www at...
us.net / life
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/03/2003 23:21:05 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 23:25:14 [Permalink]
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Intelligent Design is a scientific theory... A "scientific theory"...? Considering the number of times we have gone over what a "scientific theory" is you must know by now. So, how does Intelligent Design qualify as science? What makes it a theory? Something that is empirical is something that is based on experiment. What experiment would that be?
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------- I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them. -Bruce Clark There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 00:02:32 [Permalink]
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To Phd and Slater quote:
Intelligent Design position statement Detecting Design in the Natural Sciences Intelligence leaves behind a characteristic signature. By William A. Dembski Chance, necessity, or design covers every eventuality in ordinary life.
In ordinary life, explanations that invoke chance, necessity, or design cover every eventuality. Nevertheless, in the natural sciences one of these modes of explanation is considered superfluous -- namely, design. From the perspective of the natural sciences, design, as the action of an intelligent agent, is not a fundamental creative force in nature. Rather, blind natural causes, characterized by chance and necessity and ruled by unbroken laws, are thought sufficient to do all nature's creating. Darwin's theory is a case in point. Does nature require no help from a designing intelligence?
But how do we know that nature requires no help from a designing intelligence? Certainly, in special sciences ranging from forensics to archaeology to SETI (the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence), appeal to a designing intelligence is indispensable. What's more, within these sciences there are well-developed techniques for identifying intelligence. Essential to all these techniques is the ability to eliminate chance and necessity. Complex, sequenced patterns exhibit intelligence in their design.
For instance, how do the radio astronomers in Contact (the Jodie Foster movie based on Carl Sagan's novel of the same name) infer the presence of extraterrestrial intelligence in the beeps and pauses they monitor from space? The researchers run signals through computers that are programmed to recognize many preset patterns. Signals that do not match any of the patterns pass through the "sieve" and are classified as random. After years of receiving apparently meaningless "random" signals, the researchers discover a pattern of beats and pauses that corresponds to the sequence of all the prime numbers between 2 and 101. (Prime numbers, of course, are those that are divisible only by themselves and by one.) When a sequence begins with 2 beats, then a pause, 3 beats, then a pause . . . and continues all the way to 101 beats, the researchers must infer the presence of an extraterrestrial intelligence. If a sequence lacks complexity, it could easily happen by chance.
Here's why. There's nothing in the laws of physics that requires radio signals to take one form or another. The sequence is therefore contingent rather than necessary. Also, it is a long sequence and therefore complex. Note that if the sequence lacked complexity, it could easily have happened by chance. Finally, it was not just complex but also exhibited an independently given pattern or specification (it was not just any old sequence of numbers but a mathematically significant one -- the prime numbers). Specified complexity: the characteristic trademark or signature of intelligence.
Intelligence leaves behind a characteristic trademark or signature -- what I call "specified complexity." An event exhibits specified complexity if it is contingent and therefore not necessary; if it is complex and therefore not easily repeatable by chance; and if it is specified in the sense of exhibiting an independently given pattern. Note that complexity in the sense of improbability is not sufficient to eliminate chance: flip a coin long enough, and you'll witness a highly complex or improbable event. Even so, you'll have no reason not to attribute it to chance. Specifications must be objectively given.
The important thing about specifications is that they be objectively given and not just imposed on events after the fact. For instance, if an archer shoots arrows into a wall and we then paint bull's-eyes around them, we impose a pattern after the fact. On the other hand, if the targets are set up in advance ("specified") and then the archer hits them accurately, we know it was by design.
Undirected natural processes are incapable of generating the specified complexity in organisms.
In my book The Design Inference, I argue that specified complexity reliably detects design. In that book, however, I focus largely on examples from the human rather than the natural sciences. The main criticism of that work to date concerns whether the Darwinian mechanism of natural selection and random variation is not in fact fully capable of generating specified complexity. More recently, in No Free Lunch, I show that undirected natural processes like the Darwinian mechanism are incapable of generating the specified complexity that exists in biological organisms. It follows that chance and necessity are insufficient for the natural sciences and that the natural sciences need to leave room for design. author bio author-recommended links
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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riptor
Skeptic Friend
Germany
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 03:10:51 [Permalink]
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quote: Undirected natural processes are incapable of generating the specified complexity in organisms.
What kinda cr.. is that? Oppositionally, the complexity we reached nowadays is nothing unexplainable by natural causes. In fact there is nothing really complex in the beginning of life. Take two amino-acids, let them regenerate and you have the first form of life. From then on, increasing complexity is only a matter of time. |
Hail the Big bearded Jellyfish up in heaven above. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 08:34:34 [Permalink]
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riptor: quote: In fact there is nothing really complex in the beginning of life. Take two amino-acids, let them regenerate and you have the first form of life. From then on, increasing complexity is only a matter of time
Wow! I guess you should be the one to claim the prize money,since it was your brekthrough discovery and all. quote: alogos Posted - 01/03/2003 : 23:18:20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll get back to you Phd,but check this out quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Purpose of the Prize
How does nature's genetic programming achieve such long sequences of highly functional decision-node selections?
By what mechanism does biological nature set its algorithmic switch settings?
How do so many biochemical pathways get integrated into one coherent, unified, and sophisticated metabolic process?
"The Origin-of-Life Prize" ® is being offered to stimulate research into chaos, complexity, information, probability, self-organization, and artificial life/intelligence theories as they relate directly to biochemical and molecular biological reality. The Foundation wishes to encourage the pursuit of natural-process explanations and mechanisms of initial "gene" emergence within nature. The subject of interest is the genesis of primordial functional information itself rather than its physico-chemical matrix of retention and transmission. Bioinformation fits into the category of "prescriptive information" ("instruction," rather than mere probabilistic combinatorics [Abel, 2000, 2002]). By what mechanisms do stochastic ensembles acquire instructive/integrative potential? In other words, what are the processes whereby random biopolymeric sequences self-organize into indirect, functional code?
Central questions of interest relate to the definition and nature of "genetic instructions" and "biomessage." Is genetic recipe adequately represented and described by "mutual entropy" (shared, correlative uncertainty between transmitter and receiver)? At what point and by what processes do "biofunction" and "biosystem" enter into the chemical evolution of bioinformation?
What is a reasonable, empirically-accountable definition of "minimal life"? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.us.net/life/ quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Origin-of-Life Prize ®
Last updated January, 2003
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/04/2003 08:35:23 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 09:02:24 [Permalink]
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What exactly is this discussion about?
The origin of life and how exactly abiogenesis happened? Does that mean, that everyone here has accepted that from no outside intervention was nesecarry to evolve humans?
Or are we still argueing whether Intelligent Design is a possible alternate theory to Natural Selection?
Is a literal interpretation of the Bible still in the cards?
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To any insufficiently advanced person technolgy becomes indistinguishable from magic. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 09:22:10 [Permalink]
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To Phd heres one:quote: Tree of Life Turns Out to Have Complex Roots. New York Times, April 1998:The longstanding road map for finding the universal ancestor, however, turns out in the light of new data to have given misleading directions,[I guess its a little more complex than riptor made it out to be] and the road map's chief author, Dr. Carl Woese of the University of Illinois, is proposing a new theory about the earliest life forms.
Working back to the ancestor, an exercise based on the sequence of DNA letters in genes, resembles the way that linguists reconstruct the words of vanished mother-tongues from their living descendant languages. [analogical reasoning and just as we recognize "Intelligence"behind human languages so should we recognize Itelligence in these languages] Genes that perform the same role in human cells and in bacterial cells, say, may have a recognizably similar spelling of their DNA letters, reflecting the genes' descent from a common ancestor. In one such gene the human-bacterium similarity is as high as 45 percent....
"Five years ago we were very confident and arrogant in our ignorance," said Dr. Eugene Koonin of the National Center for
(emph.mine)To deny ID you must refute all analogical reasoning. (edited for misque) |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/04/2003 14:31:08 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 10:10:26 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by darwin alogos Working back to the ancestor, an exercise based on the sequence of DNA letters in genes, resembles the way that linguists reconstruct the words of vanished mother-tongues from their living descendant languages. [analogical reasoning and just as we recognize "Intelligence"behind human languages so should we recognize Itelligence in these languages]
I am not quite sure I understand what you are trying to say here. The consens among scientist concerning the origin of different languages is that they evolved naturally, not that they are artificially designed. We can trace languanges back to their roots, can find common ancestors and can even see new ones evolving.
We even have designed new languages like Esperanto or Klingon and have therefore a good idea how created languanges should look different from evolved ones. (Even if our artificial languages where not actually created from scratch)
The Bible says, that they were all created by God at Bable. Should we teach that as an alternative theory, too, just because we have not quite figured out all the details of how human language first emerged from animal communication? |
To any insufficiently advanced person technolgy becomes indistinguishable from magic. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 15:11:11 [Permalink]
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DA, I already know what Dembski thinks. Tell me what you think. ID is a seriously fragmented notion: all these guys you quote ad nauseam don't always share the same idea of what ID entails. In order to make a case for ID, you must define what you are trying to support.
ID proponents are forever indicating specific structures that exhibit apparent irreducible or "specified" complexity. That's fine, but what often goes unsaid, and what Behe acknowledged can't be avoided, is that natural selection is a far more capable and parsimonious explanation in the vast majority of cases. Further, even classic ID structures, such as the human eye (I believe initially mentioned by Darwin), have been shown in various stages of development in existing animals.
Finally, I would direct your attention to the consistent unwillingness of ID proponents to attempt to explain structures and mechanisms that have rock-solid evolutionary explanations already in place. Witness ConsequentAtheist's wonderful observation here.
I don't know what kind of hybrid development theorist you might be, but I will tell you this: ID is no friend of special creation. Indeed, what most lay-ID-apologists don't realize is that a sophisticated ID theory based on hard data leaves them with some sort of modified theistic evolution wherein the creator is relegated to supernaturally modifying microscopic hemoglobin molecules and tiny proteins on the surfaces of animal cells. Certainly not the Elohim described in Genesis that fundamentalists are wont to bleat about with their fingers in their ears.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. -Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 19:35:30 [Permalink]
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Lars quote: I am not quite sure I understand what you are trying to say here. The consens among scientist concerning the origin of different languages is that they evolved naturally, not that they are artificially designed. We can trace languanges back to their roots, can find common ancestors and can even see new ones evolving
Lars ,what you fail to take into account is that my point is not thehistory(or evolution if you prefer)of languages and the theories about their origins ,but the fact that everyone recognizes is that where you find them;on cave walls,ancient documents,Seti communications,encoded on bacterium ect... is that there is a MIND behind it! |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/04/2003 19:36:42 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 21:16:29 [Permalink]
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Even those who deny intelligent design have evidence of intelligent design within themselves. Someone's quote said, "truth is that which exists even when you stop believing in it." |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 21:29:24 [Permalink]
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Wow, argument by pithy quote-mining. Never seen that before. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. -Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 21:33:45 [Permalink]
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Would it be fair to say that those who believe in evolution have no intelligence because they don't believe in intelligent design? Probably not. Or, that maybe some of the missing links of Darwin's evolutionary theory have ended up in this forum? No, that wouldn't be right. How about this funny picture: A man standing on the observation floor of a tall skyscraper, wearing designer clothes, a Rolex watch on his wrist and a cell phone in his pocket, a wallet full of credit cards and pictures of his family proclaiming loudly, "I am the brother of an ameba!" |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
Edited by - Doomar on 01/05/2003 10:38:23 |
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