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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 02/11/2003 : 08:40:04 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse wrote:quote:
Experiments done with molecules that existed on earth (and would be present on other planets with the right conditions to spawn life) all produced the same kind of amino-acids.
I don't want to hijack this too far, but there are already creatures here on Earth that use amino acids which aren't used by any mammal (for example). And DNA/RNA isn't made from amino acids, but is both cleaved by and specifies proteins, given particular cellular machinery. But what if the machinery were all different? The fact that we wound up with DNA/RNA and a particular set of 20 amino acids with which to make proteins seems to me to be mere happenstance. But I, too, will defer to the opinion of any organic chemists who happen by.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 10:06:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by riptor
quote:
The most common two-atomic molecule in the universe is carbon oxide (CO).
You sure? I would bet it was molecular oxygen (O2).
My own bet would have been molecular hydrogen since almost 75% of all matter in the Universe is made out of hydrogen. But most of it is found in stars where the temperature is too high for a molecular form. I've scanned through my books, but I can't find any conclusive statement that molecular hydrogen is most common. But if we disqualify hydrogen (because it was there "from the beginning") then carbon oxide would be the most abundant two-atomic molecule.
Why not molecular oxygen? Well, oxygen oxidize other elements. Free carbon gets oxidized to CO. CO gets oxidized to CO2. Hydrogen gets oxidized to water. Silicon (Si) gets oxidized to Silicon dioxide also known as quartz. In the end, there is no free oxygen left!
Free oxygen is an indication of a (large) system that is not in chemical equilibrium.
This is why astronomers are searching for planets around other stars that show the same spectral absobtions lines as molecular oxygen (O2 and Ozone, O3) They are indicators of photo synthesis. |
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 10:14:03 [Permalink]
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The most common two-atom molecule in the universe is molecular hydrogen (H2). There are huge clouds of molecular hydrogen gas out there.
Anyways, there are actually a few other types of nucleotide bases besides adenine, thymine, cytosine, guanine, and uracil.
And it's even theoretically possible to create a base triple (as opposed to a base pair). So a triple helix is theoretically possible. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 11:00:07 [Permalink]
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NASA intends to send the spacecraft Galelio into Jupiter so as not to 'contaminate' any of the Jovian moons with Earthly biostuffs.
It may sound very silly, but I worry very much about sending any of Earth's junk deliberately crashing into Jupiter's 'surface' for---who knows??---what if there are Jovian civilizations, perhaps even Jovian technological civilizations?
That is: I am concerned that there may be (highly) intelligent life somewhere in the Jupiter "atmosphere". (Jupiter is much older than Earth.)
Hmmmmmm. 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 11:14:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
The most common two-atom molecule in the universe is molecular hydrogen (H2). There are huge clouds of molecular hydrogen gas out there.
Anyways, there are actually a few other types of nucleotide bases besides adenine, thymine, cytosine, guanine, and uracil.
And it's even theoretically possible to create a base triple (as opposed to a base pair). So a triple helix is theoretically possible.
Would a triple helix be more stable than a double helix? This will have an impact on the mutaion rate. It is not unthinkable that life with a helix made out of other nucleotide bases existed parallel to the ones we know, at the beginning. Even a triple helix might have existed.
The oldest fossile we have if bacteria is 3.5 billion years old. But we have indirect evidense of bacteria from 3.8 billion years ago. From what we have, we can not disprove the possibility of this. All we know is that any other form of life lost the race toward higher complexity when "survival of the fittest" passed judgement. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 11:19:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
NASA intends to send the spacecraft Galelio into Jupiter so as not to 'contaminate' any of the Jovian moons with Earthly biostuffs.
It may sound very silly, but I worry very much about sending any of Earth's junk deliberately crashing into Jupiter's 'surface' for---who knows??---what if there are Jovian civilizations, perhaps even Jovian technological civilizations?
That is: I am concerned that there may be (highly) intelligent life somewhere in the Jupiter "atmosphere". (Jupiter is much older than Earth.)
Hmmmmmm.
You've been reading too much Asimov...
Were you thinking of the Robot-novel about ZZ1, ZZ2 and ZZ3's trip to Jupiter's surface to negotiate peace treaty? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 11:38:35 [Permalink]
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Actually, speculating on a triple helix or other more "robust" genetic material is one of the ways I was worried about hijacking the thread. :)
Um, how much older is Jupiter than the Earth, supposedly? How much older is the Sun than the Earth?
(By the way, I always liked Sagan's speculations on Jupiter life, myself.)
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 11:52:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
NASA intends to send the spacecraft Galelio into Jupiter so as not to 'contaminate' any of the Jovian moons with Earthly biostuffs.
It may sound very silly, but I worry very much about sending any of Earth's junk deliberately crashing into Jupiter's 'surface' for---who knows??---what if there are Jovian civilizations, perhaps even Jovian technological civilizations?
That is: I am concerned that there may be (highly) intelligent life somewhere in the Jupiter "atmosphere". (Jupiter is much older than Earth.)
Hmmmmmm.
You've been reading too much Asimov...
Were you thinking of the Robot-novel about ZZ1, ZZ2 and ZZ3's trip to Jupiter's surface to negotiate peace treaty?
I pretty much quit reading SciFi 10 or so years ago.
Nonetheless, we now seem to know (--as contrasted to the "speculate" of only a couple of decades ago--) that there is a solid, Earth-like (geological-wise) body underneath all of that atmosphere (--some say "solid core" but that, IMO, leads to a poor picture). We also know that the pressure-temperature gradients in the Jovian atmosphere would yield some very interesting structures---possibly even long-term-stable "floating islands".
Given the three things- the many weird varieties of "extremophile" life recently found right here on Earth;
- that asteroid-strikes gouge out chunks of the planet they hit and send them into space; and
- that much of micro-life can incyst itself and survive for lengthy periods (--and deep-space voyages?):
I think that lifeforms from any planet could be 'seeded' on any other planet. The only real question is whether or not such 'seeds' would find conditions such that they could 'take hold and root' themselves.
Once upon a time, life on Earth was very diverse and all bacterial. Yet, from such humble beginnings, here we are. 
Why not advanced lifeforms on Jupiter----or anywhere else, for that matter?
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 12:05:43 [Permalink]
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As a postscript to my last posting, I would add that I am HIGHLY skeptical of those persons---governmental or otherwise---who decry the existence of life anywhere else;--or even that any such [intelligent] life must mimic us humans.
Once it is admitted that there exists life elsewhere (--or even that the real possibility of such exists--) then behaviour becomes necessarily modified.
(Who knows, for example, that such life might be militarily superior to ours and might, having observed our economic foibles, decide that we need to be exterminated.)
So long as our rulers/leaders have no one else to be worried about (--other than their own military/naval capacity--) then they can do what ever they wish. The vested interest of 'those in charge' is "No life elsewhere!" (--except, perhaps, for microbial lifeforms of course ).
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 12:06:35 [Permalink]
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Computer Org wrote:quote:
Nonetheless, we now seem to know (--as contrasted to the "speculate" of only a couple of decades ago--) that there is a solid, Earth-like (geological-wise) body underneath all of that atmosphere...
Funny, this is the first time I've ever heard of us knowing anything like this. Usually, what one hears is about the metallic hydrogen core theory.
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 12:43:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Computer Org wrote:quote:
Nonetheless, we now seem to know (--as contrasted to the "speculate" of only a couple of decades ago--) that there is a solid, Earth-like (geological-wise) body underneath all of that atmosphere...
Funny, this is the first time I've ever heard of us knowing anything like this. . . .
I just read it within the past couple of days, as a part of a larger discussion. I think that it was in Science News (--or Discover--) but can't quite remember where.
I agree with what you said,--this solid, Earth-like 'core' is something new to me too, but the source, as I remember things, was a very reputable one. I seem to think that the article had to do with planet-formation. Will try to hunt up a reference.  |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 07:55:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Actually, speculating on a triple helix or other more "robust" genetic material is one of the ways I was worried about hijacking the thread. :)
Um, how much older is Jupiter than the Earth, supposedly? How much older is the Sun than the Earth?
According to Armand Delsemme (professor of astrophysics) the runaway agglomeration of Jupiter embryo occurred about 1 million years after the sun "lit up". During the four million years following that, Jupiter collected it's atmosphere, then the rest of the nebular gas dissipated. So Jupiter was pretty much finished after 5 million years. Earth had accumulated 99% of it's mass 40 million years after the sun. (10 million years after that, a Mars size protoplanet hit the Earth, and the splash thrown up in orbit formed the moon)
quote:
(By the way, I always liked Sagan's speculations on Jupiter life, myself.)
I haven't read Sagan, so I don't know. Arthur C Clarke wrote about life forms in Jupiter's atmosphere in "3001". Maybe he was inspired by Sagan? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 08:30:32 [Permalink]
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Oddly, a lot of the very recent ideas about Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, and Uranus (--their formation, construction, etc.--) seems to be coming from the Jovian-sized extra-Solar planets that are being found in ever-increasing numbers.
I'm not sure that it makes any difference what Jupiter's inner planetary 'core' is composed of. Although I've read neither Sagan's nor Clark's fictional/hypothetical suggestions, the very nature of a "gas giant's" atmosphere leads one to think of atmospheric lifeforms rather than ground-based life.
(We, ourselves, have some equivalents---and some pretty smart ones at that: Whales, dolphins, etc. They live their entire lives in some very thick Earthly 'atmosphere' and never walk on solid ground!)
My concern is one of possibility. I'll give an Earthly analogy of what my worries are:
Consider a 1800's sailing ship, ballasted with cannon-balls for just-in-case emergencies. Near the end of the voyage, enough cargo has been loaded that the ship is low in the water and the cannon ball-and powder-ballast is no longer needed.
The ship stops at a seemingly deserted island----at least there are no condominiums nor PalmBeach Florida-style estate homes visible: 'Obviously' uninhabited.
The captain has cannon-practice toward the 'deserted' shoreline, getting rid of his now-unwanted ball and powder. Alas! The island is inhabited---by well-armed Portugese colonizers who have deliberately left the shoreline in a natural, pristine condition.
Bad, bad news for the ship and its crew.
What you see is not always what you get. Just because Jupiter does not seem to be inhabited does not mean that it might not be.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 09:26:03 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse wrote:quote:
According to Armand Delsemme (professor of astrophysics)...
Ah, okay. By those numbers, if the Moon is 4.6 billion years old, then the Earth is between 4.6 and 4.61 byo, and Jupiter is 4.645 byo, a difference of 0.97% at most? Well, you could perhaps increase the difference by some years by claiming that the creation of the Moon "reset" the Earth, but let's not bother, since the differences are tiny. This pretty much answers Computer Org's "Jupiter is much older than Earth" comment.
As far as Sagan's hypotheticals go, cruise to your local video store(s), and see if you can rent episode 12 (I think) of Sagan's 1980 "Cosmos" TV series. I believe that's the one with the nifty Jupiter critters in it.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 11:12:11 [Permalink]
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About the triple helix...it would be less stable than ordinary DNA (and it would still be DNA because it would still contain deoxyribose and not some other sugar). Mainly because the third helix is attached to only one of the other helixes, instead of being bonded to both.
Because of this, the triple helix (when untwisted) would not form a perfectly equilateral-type deal, but an isosceles-type configuration (which would then twist and form the triple helix). |
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