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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2003 : 07:37:17
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This is a rare media-based example of skepticism and logical thinking. Everyone should appreciate this, even if they don't agree with it.
http://msnbc.com/news/866044.asp?0cv=CB20
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2003 : 11:34:53 [Permalink]
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Man Mandela really let loose in this one, I think he might be my new hero :>
http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusintl/ap01-30-100306.asp?reg=africa&vts=13020031015
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One power with a president who has no foresight and cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust
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If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings. Who are they now to pretend that they are the policemen of the world, the ones that should decide for the people of Iraq what should be done with their government and their leadership?
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 12:36:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jmcginn
Man Mandela really let loose in this one, I think he might be my new hero :>
That's interesting. It left me wondering if Mandela has lost his mental facilities...
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'Is it because the secretary-general of the United Nations is now a black man? They never did that when secretary-generals were white,' he said.
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'If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings,' he said.
Pet peeve #37637653: Talking about countries as if they were some single sentient being that has been in existence since their inception, and that this being is responsible for every action taken by the leaders of these countries.
Who is this "they" he refers to that "[doesn't] care for human beings?
and from another article on the same subject here:
quote:
Mandela said U.S. President George W. Bush covets the oil in Iraq "because Iraq produces 64 percent of the oil in the world. What Bush wants is to get hold of that oil." In fact Iraq contributes to only 5 percent of world oil exports.
Just another politician who loves his power, giving his audience the hyperbole they want to hear so he gets the applause. |
| Edited by - Tokyodreamer on 01/30/2003 13:00:27 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 12:48:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
This is a rare media-based example of skepticism and logical thinking. Everyone should appreciate this, even if they don't agree with it.
http://msnbc.com/news/866044.asp?0cv=CB20
Michael Kinsley, skeptical of a Republican President's speech?! Who'd a thunk! 
Maybe someone can help me understand this argument I keep hearing:
Country X and Country Y are run by lunatics with WMD.
Country Z is going to war with Country X because of this, but not with Country Y.
Country Z is hypocritical for not also going to war with Country Y, therefore Country X should be left alone.
Does not compute.
Country Z may indeed be hypocritical, but it seems to me that this should have zero to do with what happens between Country Z and Country X, if the reasons for going to war with Country X are valid. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 13:23:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tokyodreamer
Michael Kinsley, skeptical of a Republican President's speech?! Who'd a thunk!
Heh. Well, skepticism is at least a refreshing change from open hostility.
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Maybe someone can help me understand this argument I keep hearing:
Country X and Country Y are run by lunatics with WMD.
Country Z is going to war with Country X because of this, but not with Country Y.
Country Z is hypocritical for not also going to war with Country Y, therefore Country X should be left alone.
Does not compute.
Country Z may indeed be hypocritical, but it seems to me that this should have zero to do with what happens between Country Z and Country X, if the reasons for going to war with Country X are valid.
I think Kinsley covered this - he basically said North Korea, in their advanced stage of nuclear threat, is now worthy of diplomacy, whereas Iraq, which probably does not have a viable nuclear weapon, should be invaded. Seems kinda backwards, no? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 13:26:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tokyodreamer
quote:
Mandela said U.S. President George W. Bush covets the oil in Iraq "because Iraq produces 64 percent of the oil in the world. What Bush wants is to get hold of that oil." In fact Iraq contributes to only 5 percent of world oil exports.
Just another politician who loves his power, giving his audience the hyperbole they want to hear so he gets the applause.
He might be correct, though. Iraq has, IIRC, the second largest oil reserve in the world. It's possible they don't export a very high percentage of what they produce, yet their total production is a significant portion of the world's total oil.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 13:54:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
I think Kinsley covered this - he basically said North Korea, in their advanced stage of nuclear threat, is now worthy of diplomacy, whereas Iraq, which probably does not have a viable nuclear weapon, should be invaded. Seems kinda backwards, no?
Only if "nuclear threat" is the only criteria for judging.
It just seems that the issue vastly oversimplified in every argument I hear on either side. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 14:01:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
He might be correct, though.
Yes, he certainly might. I just doubt that his rhetoric is based upon objective evidence, and more upon what reaction it will garner in his audience.
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Iraq has, IIRC, the second largest oil reserve in the world. It's possible they don't export a very high percentage of what they produce, yet their total production is a significant portion of the world's total oil.
Indeed! I just did a search, and found this site. Iraq was second with 115 billion barrels, with Saudi Arabia in the (vast) lead with 265 billion barrels in 2001!
[formatting [and spelling]] |
| Edited by - Tokyodreamer on 01/30/2003 14:03:21 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 15:09:59 [Permalink]
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I thought Kinsley raised rather valid points. A President should be consistent. Sure, Kinsley is without a doubt a liberal but Bush left himself open with such crude reasoning. Thank goodness someone is there to call him on his bullshit.
I also think that while it's a shame that people associate the acts of individuals with an entire country it is also a fact that this is exactly what they do regardless of how fair it is. This is why it's so scary that someone who is so poorly educated and unused to thinking things through is calling shots we will all be blamed for. Talk about the wrong man for the wrong job. I am literally pissing my pants at the thought of a blind man at the wheel which would be preferable to the situation we now find ourselves in. And when this idiot crashes the car into a crowd of school children I get blamed. Yayyyy...
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 15:18:11 [Permalink]
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 15:21:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
That's interesting. It left me wondering if Mandela has lost his mental facilities.
Hey now I can be a little irrational when it comes to enjoying shots taking at Bush.
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Who is this "they" he refers to that "[doesn't] care for human beings?
Whether we like it or not, the world perceives the actions of the American government as the actions of Americans. We look like total arrogant jerks to the majority of the rest of the world, why? Because that's how our government acts. His State of the Union left quite a few Europeans scratching their heads at what they just heard. It bordered on scary divine rights for Americans to interject our politics in other countries and one journalists (German I believe) even likened it to Manifest Destiny as I heard on NPR.
And in a way I agree. We elected the jerk. We are not speaking loud enough to drown out his rhetoric. We are sitting on our hands as he prepares to take us into a war we have no business starting. (By "we" I mean the majority of American citizens, not all of course). Now should we be blaimed for our past? That's a touchy subject especially when the events are quite recent and quite destructive. I will have to say no to the question, but we should be sensitive of our past and try and learn from our past. Threatening Iraq with nuclear weapons sends a strong message to the rest of the world we have learnt nothing from our past.
As for your points about Mandela, I agree, maybe he is a little senile or loosing it a little. It still wsa kind of fun though :> |
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