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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 02/03/2003 : 14:27:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I'm willing to suggest that most of science began as superstition. 
Well, let's look at two common definitions of "superstition."
1. An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.
This seems like the antithesis of science - "irrational belief," "not logically related" - certainly not a method that would evolve into science.
2. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
This one doesn't work for me either. "Irrationally maintained"?
Now, you might correctly say that some previously held superstitions turned out to be true. This is something one would expect in any scenario involving observation and guesswork - guesses are going to be occasionally correct, regardless of the known a priori evidence for their correctness. This does not mean either that superstition is a good way to preempt science or that the bulk of early science was basically superstition.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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THE SHOUTER
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2003 : 21:13:53 [Permalink]
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DR SHARI, YOU ARE BEING CAREFUL. NO YOU TRY AGAIN. REREAD WHAT I POSTED ABOVE AND THE REACTION TO MY 1ST POSTING.
KIL AND ALL THE OTHER FONTISTS I HOPE YOUR DAUGHTERS MARRY OUTSIDE YOUR FONT.
@TOMIC WHAT I NEED IS PERHAPS A REFERENCE POINT. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF CLEVER.
COMPUTER ORG I DO AGREE THAT SUPERSTITION CAN MORPH INTO A SCIENCE AS WE LEARN MORE ABOUT THE PHYSICAL WORLD. IT HAPPENED WITH ALCHEMY/CHEMISTRY, ASTROLOGY/ASTRONOMY AND SHAMANISM/MEDICINE TO NAME A FEW BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE WOULDN'T HAVE COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSIONS WITHOUT SUPERSTITION. YOU DID LOSE ME WITH THAT INTER-TRIBAL TRADE CRAP. I WAS TALKING ABOUT SOCIAL GROUPS (TRIBES IS MORE COLORFUL) AND THE PROPENSITY OF HUMANS TO LET THEIR CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS SLIDE AND THEIR PREJUDICES EMERGE WHILE THEY THINK THEY ARE SAFELY ENSCONCED IN A TRIBE.
THIS IS FUN TO READ: http://www.accd.edu/pac/philosop/phil1301/tribal.htm
I DON'T THINK WE ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE 12 YEAR OLDS ABOVE, MAYBE MARGINALLY BETTER IMPULSE CONTROL.
Edited by Kil for font size. Sigh.... |
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Wurrwakh the Ass Monkey
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2003 : 01:49:17 [Permalink]
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What the frig? We haven't stopped evolving, foolio. Evolution is always occurring. It's not something you decide to do when you've gotten bored. Do you really think Homo erectus formed a commitee and was all like, "I think we should evolve again"? Sheeeit...evolution ain't no self-help program...
Here's the truth: human as we know it will reproduce and reproduce and reproduce, for hundreds of thousands of years, until we don't know 'em no mo... |
--Wurrwakh, A.M. |
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2003 : 22:35:23 [Permalink]
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| I'm all for Kil doing something (aka deleting) about SHOUTER's posts. I can't stand to read them, but not because of content, because they're too damned hard to follow when they're typed out in ALL CAPS. |
--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2003 : 22:43:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Legallee Insane
I'm all for Kil doing something (aka deleting) about SHOUTER's posts. I can't stand to read them, but not because of content, because they're too damned hard to follow when they're typed out in ALL CAPS.
Legal, I agree with you.
I own an egroup called FreeSpeech and I do believe anyone has the right to say what they want about anything and I've never had to delete anyone from it yet but if that guy was on the list I'd give some serious thought to not allowing his posts.
There is a limit, don't you think?
Shouter, don't you get the hint? |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2003 : 10:20:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THE SHOUTER
THE ASS, CAN I CALL YOU BY YOUR MIDDLE NAMES, DUDE, ARE YOU TRIPPIN'? IF SO, WHY DON'T YOU GO TALK TO MR. COCKROACH OVER THERE ABOUT EVOLUTION.
AM I GOING TO VOTED OFF THE ISLAND? IT'S NOT THE CONTENT IT'S JUST THAT, DARN IT, THOSE CAPS ARE SOO HARD TO READ. MY EYE IS TWITCHING RIGHT NOW.
MAYBE NOT READING MY POSTS WOULD HELP.
Maybe not posting would help even more |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 09:29:23 [Permalink]
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The offending sentence:quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org:
I'm willing to suggest that most of science began as superstition.
The objections and the counter-objections:
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Okay. I gather that what you're saying is that we are evolving and have less superstition than we did thanks to good science. I would say that we still have superstition, and superstition does not necessarily lead to science.
No, I (pretty much) agree with what you said.
Begin with a superstition (--not with science). That superstition may be true or it may be false (or, alas, some combination of the two). That superstition will eventually become known as being false and worthless or it will eventually become known as being true---usually through the usual processes of logic, rational thought, experimentation: that is, through "science".
Anyway, that's how I see it.
quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer:
Well, let's look at two common definitions of "superstition."
1. An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.
This seems like the antithesis of science - "irrational belief," "not logically related" - certainly not a method that would evolve into science.
2. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
This one doesn't work for me either. "Irrationally maintained"?
Now, you might correctly say that some previously held superstitions turned out to be true. This is something one would expect in any scenario involving observation and guesswork - guesses are going to be occasionally correct, regardless of the known a priori evidence for their correctness. This does not mean either that superstition is a good way to preempt science or that the bulk of early science was basically superstition.
I think, PhDreamer, that your definitions are (--and rightfully so!--) based on today's simultaneous existence of both science and superstitions: Your definitions try to differentiate between the two.
My word "superstition", on the other hand, was meant in the context of "there does not yet exist the notion of 'science' (nor logic nor rational-thought) with respect to the particular superstition being considered".
The only time that I'd agree with your view is in those rare cases when the "superstition" is on the part of a scientist and is more in the form of a ScientificHypothesis.
Nonetheless, even in this rare case, a scientist's belief in a particular ScientificHypothesis as being true is, from the viewpoint of many other scientists in the field, 'incorrect', 'misguided', 'ill-conceived', 'preposterous', 'nonsensical', etc.----in other words: a superstition.  See, as an example of this phemomenon, my posting on the notion (--by a physicist from the University of Melbourne--) of Mirror Matter over in the Astronomy Forum.
(Edited to eliminate some interesting ForumCode anomalies.  )
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 02/08/2003 11:54:26 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 12:06:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
MAYBE NOT READING MY POSTS WOULD HELP.
Ok, I see how it is. Now you can't back down. You would view it as some kind of personal defeat or weakness if you just made it easier for people to read your posts....
I have yet to delete a post by anyone. Our site, in case you haven't noticed, is a freethought site and not an anarchists playground. Maybe you do not know the difference. Look it up.
Since your posts may be of some value, even if it's to argue for why we have what you regard as a stupid cap rule, I suggest a slight change in style. You press one button and people will not be complaining to me about how they cannot read your posts.
I know you consider it some kind of victory each time I edit one of your posts. It's boring for me.
Please have some regard for others or I will start deleting your posts.
Maybe you will think of that as another victory..... I will think of it as punting a bore. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 18:03:09 [Permalink]
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| Just a thought....why doesn't everybody stop replying to this person until it shuts down the caps? Way too much time has already been given to this situation. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2003 : 01:25:24 [Permalink]
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| Uh, just what the hell is this thread supposed to be about anyway? |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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riptor
Skeptic Friend
Germany
70 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2003 : 05:23:48 [Permalink]
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No one knows, no one cares.
Just here to tell you an old german forum-rule: Don't feed the trolls. |
Hail the Big bearded Jellyfish up in heaven above. |
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Uber Troll
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 02/09/2003 : 20:27:14 [Permalink]
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speaking of that i hear one of my people is causing some problems on this site and im here to get rid of it if you just close your eyes and make a wish while i chant
hickey hickey hin hickey hidey ho
out shouter you must go
there i think that has taken care of it
by the way have you heard what nasa stands for
need another seven astronauts |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 09:12:43 [Permalink]
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( Here I go, getting myself into trouble yet once again. )
You display your ignorance, folks.
My first major (in-class) computer program was back in '63---in FORTRAN and, most telling, mandated to be written IN ALL-CAPS.
My (1968) M.S. research, an application of computers to Mathematical Logic, was also in the FORTRAN language and, thus, was written in ALL CAPS, as is mandated for all FORTRAN coding.
My first experience with a multi-program computer (1973) was through a clunkity-clunking, clatterly-clacking teletype, ("TTY") where everything was, alas!, in ALL CAPS.
The very first time I ever saw 'computerese' in lower-case was when I bought a text on the computer-language "C++"----and DID IT EVER LOOK WEIRD!! But: One adapts---I have learned never to use ALL CAPS on the Web. 
Still: I think that what is most important is the content of the message; not form of its caligraphy. 
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 00:44:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Still: I think that what is most important is the content of the message; not form of its caligraphy.
Anyone who doesn't 'fit in' must go. It's the American way.
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Radar
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2003 : 07:28:48 [Permalink]
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Please Shouter don't shout  I have a headache  
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Tact is the ability to tell a man he has an open mind when he has a hole in his head.
I spy with my little eye a UFO, Unattached fit object. |
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