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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2001 : 15:17:52
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Poll Question:
Recently hospitals and abortion clinics have been under fire for selling the aborted fetuses to research companies. What do you think?
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Ma gavte la nata!
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 07/10/2001 07:35:54
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Poll Status:
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Total Votes: 0 counted »» |
Last Vote:
never |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2001 : 15:56:50 [Permalink]
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OK TD, but they aren't allowed to sell the fetal tissue. They can only charge a reasonable handling fee. And the mother is required to give her consent prior to the fetal tissue being transfered to a research organization. So IMHO the point is moot.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2001 : 16:08:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
OK TD, but they aren't allowed to sell the fetal tissue. They can only charge a reasonable handling fee. And the mother is required to give her consent prior to the fetal tissue being transfered to a research organization. So IMHO the point is moot.
Hmm, from what I heard about it, that was what the stink was. They weren't getting the mother's consent. And their 'reasonable handling fee' was quite a chunk of change...
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2001 : 21:02:30 [Permalink]
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These are only rare occasions. Yet they are trotted out as the norm by the Anti-Abortion groups. It's for shock value only. I can find the two or three sites that I know about that support this issue if you'd like.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2001 : 07:36:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Where does one add one's opinion to the poll?
Let me know, and I'll add it. Must be 100 characters or less.
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Ma gavte la nata!
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 07/10/2001 07:36:49 |
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Tarquin
New Member
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 15:26:48 [Permalink]
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Loaded question.
First, I'm against abortion altogether. That said, I do accept it as a common occurence.
Second, Research is very important. The fetuses should go to the researchers. I don't think the mother of the fetus should have a say in that, unless there were medical reasons for the abortion and the mother had an emotional attachment. I figure anyone who chooses an abortion when a healthy delivery is possible must relinquish all rights to the fetus.
Now for the handling/money issue. I believe in capitalism. Plain and simple, I would have no trouble accepting the idea of a fetus auction, where all the bidders were researchers. Again the mother should get none of this cash. If she did, it would certainly be a factor in deciding to abort or not in some cases. Worst case scenario being scores of women regularly having abortions just to pick up some cash.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 14:54:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now for the handling/money issue. I believe in capitalism. Plain and simple, I would have no trouble accepting the idea of a fetus auction, where all the bidders were researchers. Again the mother should get none of this cash. If she did, it would certainly be a factor in deciding to abort or not in some cases. Worst case scenario being scores of women regularly having abortions just to pick up some cash.
Sorry about this, but most women have to pay for their abortions. Many insurance companies will not cover this expense as it is considered an unnecessary medical procedure. So the concept of women lining up for abortions to make a little cash smells a little fishy.
Second, the reason women choose to have abortions are as varied as the women who choose to do so. A woman who is raped did not choose to have sex and become pregnant. The child is growing in her body through no fault of hers. If she chooses to have an abortion so be it. A child who is from a home where she feels unaccepted or unloved may choose sex as an alternative to make herself feel loved. Consequently this child may become pregnant. I would rather see the fetus aborted than a live child thrown away in the trash.
Forcing women to have children who do not have access to sufficient medical care and thus no access to contraception is a mysoginistic attitude. Why force a woman to have a child she doesn't want (for whatever reason)? Why force your particular view on women? Why force your opinion of what a woman is allowed to do with her body on her? Why are you so against abortion if it does not affect you in any direct manner? I personally will never have an abortion unless the circumstances are beyond my control. But my opinion of what to do with my body in no way affects the decisions of women who will have an abortion. Nor should I in any way force my opinion on another. If I were to do so, I would affect more than the life of the mother. Potentially the mother would be miserable, the child would be miserable, and anyone else in the mother's life would be miserable. Why force suffering upon others? Because you think abortion is wrong? Well - it ain't your life and your body so keep your fricking nose out of it!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Tarquin
New Member
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 16:17:15 [Permalink]
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The line-ups for cash are a worst case scenario. And if fetuses were sellable I am sure the purchaser would cover the expense for the mother. And since you ask, I will tell you why I am against abortion, I'm sure it's a reason you've heard before. When you abort, you take the rights and freedoms from the growing child. It comes down to when you believe life begins...you seem to think it begins at birth, where I believe it begins as a fetus. No point in arguing the fact, we just have different opinions. Babies in the trash are as disturbing to me as a mother who drowns all her children in a bathtub, and that's as disturbing as an abortion. If one were to choose a different point from which to see life begin...such as the age of majority, the woman who drowns her 7-yr old child has then commited no murder. I use this example only to point out the difference frame of reference makes.
As for why I feel affected? I gues there is some truth to John Donne's utterings... 'Every man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind'.
Edited by - Tarquin on 07/18/2001 16:18:07 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 16:45:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
If one were to choose a different point from which to see life begin...such as the age of majority, the woman who drowns her 7-yr old child has then commited no murder. I use this example only to point out the difference frame of reference makes.
An abusive parent who kills their child is sentenced to less time in prison than an individual who kills an adult. Unfortunately, children are considered throw away in our society.
I do not believe that life begins at the moment of conception. I do believe that life begins at some point in the womb. I have extreme problems with late term abortions - particularly in third trimester and very definately with partial birth abortions. If the child can be extracted from the mothers body most of the way - then the extra inch shouldn't be a problem.
However, forcing a woman into having a child that she can not raise affects that woman and that child and everyone around them. The woman is trapped and the child very often unloved. Why force a woman to carry a child to term if the child is there not by her choice? You force the woman into reliving her attack every second of every day for nine months. This is shear torture for her. You expect her to love that child? Its a pain to her. Is society or the government then going to take over the parental rights of the mother? If society or the government were forced to taking the parental rights of each mother who would instead choose to have an abortion - what cost to us to raise unwanted children - that need never have been. Yes, abortion causes a loss to all of society, but are the alternatives to the loss of a single individual worth it when weighed against the pressure on society to raise all those individuals? I think not. I also believe that forcing a woman into carrying a child to term when she would rather abort the fetus is mysoginistic. Why is it the decision of the state to allow or disallow a woman to have control of her body? Why should it be?
Until such time as an universal standard can be set for when life begins *in the womb or out* then we are stuck with this issue. I would rather see an abortion than a child caused to suffer needlessly.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 22:47:59 [Permalink]
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I just read an article about a very well respected scientist who is leaving the States to continue doing stem cell research. Stem cells have the ability to become any kind of cell in the body. This is very promising research that could ultimately lead to cures to some diseases such as alzheimers and diabetes. Why is he leaving? Because he can't get human fetuses at any publicly funded institution. Privately funded researchers are laying low right now too.
Abortion is legal. The fetus is dead. What sense does it make to inhibit this research? The Bush people are thinking on it now. Prospects are dim.
As for asking the woman aborting the fetus if using it is ok with her, why? She is aborting the darned thing. She doesn't want it! She shouldn't be paid for it and she shouldn't even be asked. It's none of her business what happens to it after the abortion. If she willingly terminated her pregnancy, that should be that.
The Evil Skeptic |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 22:56:58 [Permalink]
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Kil, I have no argument with the stem cell research. I think that the woman should be asked, I would agree if I personally believed in abortion. My argument is with those who don't believe in a womans right to choose. There are as many reasons for having an abortion as there are women who have them. Unless we are prepared as a society to care for the unwanted children - which we aren't - we must not make abortion illegal, otherwise you force misery on others.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Kristin
Skeptic Friend
Canada
84 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2001 : 08:27:31 [Permalink]
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I think the arguments being used against stem cell research are rather foolish. Personally I find the ideas of using aborted fetuses as sources for stem cells rather disturbing, but I feel the same way about abortion  but a woman should have the right to choose. (although after the 3rd or 4th, damn, go get your tubes tied, idiot. I know there is supposed to be a 3-abortion limit as any more affects the womb adversely(?) and can cause infertility(?)) But in-vitro fertilized embryos being used is(should) be hard to object to. The ones that are not used are eventually destroyed anyways. Yes, some are 'adopted' but how many are NOT? What if they COULD help save someone's life? This huge resource should not be thrown away. Perhaps when they are to be destroyed anyways, the 'owners'/'parents' should be given the option to donate them to science. People have the right to choose to donate their own body to science, after all, and a week old embryo isn't exactly in a position to volunteer itself. Plus, parents usually end up paying a large amount for fertility treatments in the first place, so if they could recoup some of that from a company that would make money from stem-cell developments anyways, I don't see that as a bad thing.
anyways, that's just my opinion.
Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement. |
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Tarquin
New Member
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2001 : 10:05:58 [Permalink]
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Stem research is a good thing coming from a heinous act. I'm all for it.
There seems to be a focus on the woman's right to choose. What of the child's rights? It has none. In instances of rape, there is a morning after pill. Take it. For unwanted pregnancies, consider adoption. Babies are in demand for adoptions. And I don't mind seeing my tax dollars going to support these children who are not adopted. The dollars already go to worse places. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2001 : 12:38:00 [Permalink]
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Personally I think life should be considered to begin at viability (we could work out the details later). This doesn't mean, however, that I think abortions after this point should be illegal. I think legality should be kept out of it.
If you believe life begins at conception, the morning after pill is the same as an abortion (if the egg happened to be fertilized).
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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michael
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2001 : 09:52:57 [Permalink]
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The potential benefits that can be gained by stem cell research are extreme. Combine this with the knowledge of the ultimate destiny of the vast majority of ferilized ova and it's easy to avoid all of this talk of when life begins.
That said I can't resist saying the following:
I have never nor will I ever have to face a decision as difficult as abortion. Regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, it is not only extremely hypocritical of me to tell someone who does face this decision what they should do, it is none of my business.
"For unwanted pregnancies, consider adoption. Babies are in demand for adoptions. And I don't mind seeing my tax dollars going to support these children who are not adopted. The dollars already go to worse places. "
Worse places like welfare, medicare or education perhaps?
As to the "child's" right to choose argument that is laughable when you look around and see those stricken with REAL poverty, disease and abuse. Let's compare how many children die each day due to these to how many die to abortions in a year.
I really think this whole issue has been used for political gain in this country, more so than any true concern for children.
Oops. I'm probably going to stir up a hornet's nest now. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2001 : 12:20:21 [Permalink]
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I'm going to have to amend my original rant on this subject. I read what I wrote to my girlfriend, a feminist. She has many good arguments for why a woman should have the right to choose what is done with the fetus she has aborted. She accused me of being anti choice on the other side of the issue. For example, there may be religious considerations for some woman that shouldn't be ignored.
I carry a donor card on the back my drivers license. My choice.
What she did say is that if she had an abortion and donated the fetus to science she would feel that at least some good might come from the physically and emotionally painful experience of her abortion. She would not hesitate to donate.
Ask the woman. But also provide information on the very real benefits to science, and in the long run, humanity, that fetal tissue research might bring. Don't just make it a box to check.
The Evil Skeptic |
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