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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2001 : 12:58:15 [Permalink]
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Orpheus, 1st of all, who the hell is that a picture of on your Icon?
That's Jesus from South Park. Don't you have cable?
it's women who want the separtation. They talk about men being 'dogs' etc. They won't money from a divorce. They want clubs with no men but if a man wants to have an all men organization they want to push their way in.
Don't forget that every movie for the past ten years has featured a woman kicking a man in the balls. And on every TV commercial it is the man who plays the fool and the woman is wise enough to use the product.
I also think the wage difference is a myth. I agree. I believe that the reason women think that they are paid less than men is because men lie to women about how much they make. Besides do any of you actually know what your co-workers are bringing home? I don't.
But when it comes to sexual orientation I say don't ask don't tell. With a particular emphasis on the "don't tell" part. (and he thinks that putting a shrimp cocktail in his mouth is distasteful)
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2001 : 17:46:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
I also think the wage difference is a myth. I agree. I believe that the reason women think that they are paid less than men is because men lie to women about how much they make. Besides do any of you actually know what your co-workers are bringing home? I don't.
I will disagree a bit with this. I was only making 37K where several of my contemporaries were making 52K. Granted some of this discrepancy is due to no BA, however, some were only making 46K with the BA. Why the discrepancies, I don't know, but it seems odd that the deciding line was, for the most part, gender.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2001 : 19:32:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why the discrepancies, I don't know, but it seems odd that the deciding line was, for the most part, gender.
In the publishing industry in New York (of which I have some little knowledge) The story that women earn less than men for doing the same job that they do twice as well to get the same recognition---has lead to the fireing of almost all the men. Here in California if a want ad reads "Diversity welcome. EOE." you can take that to mean --straight white men need not apply.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2001 : 11:59:09 [Permalink]
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I think that's one of the reasons I liked the military so much. It's ability based. If something heavy needed lifting, I went and got one of the guys. If a radio was screwed up, I was often called on. Some equipment I was so-so on maintenance, other equipment I was a "maintenance goddess". One guy I worked with could practically phone in maintenance on HF radios, but I wouldn't let him near a signal generater if it involved VHF/UHF. We all had our niche. On the more distasteful side, if equipemnt had to be crawled into to maintain it, guess who? It's a bitch being vertically challanged.
However, except for differences for time in grade, everyone in a given grade is paid the same. Gender made no difference.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2001 : 16:43:19 [Permalink]
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I will agree to a point there, Lisa. Gender makes little difference within each paygrade, but it is sometimes harder for women to advance to the next rank due to a "good-old-boy" network. Also, just ask Trish why she didn't deploy during Desert Storm.
A few years ago, when I was actually working for my living (rather than doing research) there was a woman in my division (yes, only one woman), one rank higher than me. She was quite competent, but I found myself being put in positions of supervision over her. When I brought this up to my LPO (supervisor, for non-Navy types), he told me he didn't like her, and that she will never make First Class (E-6). When I asked why he didn't like her, he insinuated it was because she was a woman. She fortunately was moved to a different division where she (of course) excelled, and eventually made First.
As long as this attitude is around, in a company, in a military, and in a country, we are damaging our productivity.
We do, of course, need to guard against the "reverse discrimination' that Slater was describing, as well.
-Timmy! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2001 : 18:10:16 [Permalink]
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Boron, maybe I was just lucky to choose the correct career field, because I ran into very few problems like this. The ability to solder microcircuits and troubleshoot balky equipment that should have been replaced decades ago was the most important thing. I have seen some of the good old boys though. They seemed to think that every woman was a ditz and a baby-maker. Nowdays, these guys stand out like sore thumbs and are generally ignored.
Would you believe that in 20 years I never supervised another female? That just ocurred to me. Odd. Anyway, my supervision style was simple: Get the work done on time, or early if possible. Don't do anything to get my ass in a crack with the commander. If you've got something on your chest, feel free to talk, we'll work it out, and I'll keep my lip zipped.
I never really cared what shade of skin these guys had, what religion they were, or who they voted for. I did care that we could work as a team, all the rest is nothing but distraction.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 02:14:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
In the publishing industry in New York (of which I have some little knowledge) The story that women earn less than men for doing the same job that they do twice as well to get the same recognition---has lead to the fireing of almost all the men. Here in California if a want ad reads "Diversity welcome. EOE." you can take that to mean --straight white men need not apply.
Unfortunately this type of attitude is prevalent. I am more of an illustrator than I ever was a writer. Most of my time was spent in the underground mining equipment industry. (Heavily male dominated.) I was the only woman in the company not working in an administrative capacity, not reception, accounting or purchasing. The woman welder was given so much BS from the management she eventually quit. I was the only woman working under the auspices of the engineering department. (I guess I should say with the exception of a part time drafter. She wound up with most of the *clerk* type work.)
I would have to say that in certain industries there are discriminatory hiring and pay practices - definitely going all ways. It's unfortunate that my ideas for improving the supporting documentation were not put into effect until just before I was laid off. And that was done by the Canadian branch not the US. Locally my ideas and proposals were set aside because the system had always worked - they're now out of business in the US. Hmmmm......
Yes, the military is truly equal in it's pay practices. Everyone is paid based on time in service, time in grade and rank. However, in a support logistics position that would have been away from any real fighting there is no logical reason for WMs to have been left behind. (WM=Women Marines)
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 10:42:38 [Permalink]
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Some reflections on the current discussion:
I think much informal discrimination still takes place in the workplace i.t.o. women: especially so-called "old-boys networks". However, what is even more disconcerting is the formal strictures placed on women in certain careers, i.e. military combat. Ask yourself this: if women were by nature incapable of being combat soldiers (which often is cited as a reason), why would it be necessary to keep them from attempting it? If they were inherantly incapable of being soldiers (or any other barred occupation) they simply would not be able to do it (or even want to do it)!! This suggests that more political motives may be at play here..
On the reverse side of the coin however, I have often found that many women, having benefitted from past feminists (both men and women) sacrifice and political action, and thus enjoying equal renumeration and opportunity, still deny their indebtedness in various ways:
1. How many times have you heard someone begin a sentence with: "I'm not a feminist, but..." Huh? Why is being a feminist suddenly so bad?
2. Many women are now enjoying both the hard-earned freedoms of feminist activists AS WELL AS the advantages of the old patriachal dispensation. Examples? What is the ratio of women approaching men to ask them out on dates? Women opening doors for men? Women complementing men on their appearance? Men enjoying the same range of fashion as women?
The list goes on, albeit mostly in the "social" realm. But this realm is not necessarily any less important. In fact, in my occupation, I tend to see a lot of the negative effects this social disenfranchisment can have on both sexes: Women sometimes complain of feeling like emotional basketcases, men of being emotionally blunted, or sensually unrecognised..
thoughts?
Find your own damned answers! |
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