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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2003 : 00:15:14
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Something I've been wondering about lately: I've noticed that some of my best problem-solving thinking gets done when I'm not really officially thinking at all, in that peculiar zone between wakefulness and sleep.
A couple of examples:
I was working on a personal circuit design project (a little something to use in the studio). I had already designed, breadboarded and debugged three of the four main sections of the whole thing, and the fourth was completely stumping me. The approach I had originally intended to take had turned out to be a dead end.
After spending a few hours trying to think of a solution, I was lying in bed nearly asleep- and the solution popped into my head just like *snap*, so vividly that I saw the schematic for it in my mind's eye. That woke me up pretty well, and I spent another little while working out the details in my head.
It worked. I had to revise it slightly, but the problem was solved, and pretty soon I was using the finished product in sessions.
Recently, I was working on a little bit of AC circuit analysis. It was really a simple problem, but I was out of practice. I spent a couple of hours pushing the equations around on paper, and every time I thought I was done I realized "Aw #$%^, that can't be right."
Later, relaxing in bed before nodding out, I solved the whole thing in my head. When I tried it out on paper the next day, it turned out to be right.
Similar things happen fairly often at work. If I've gotten to the end of a shift still stumped by a troubleshooting problem, I'm quite likely to have a whole new hypothesis about what's wrong and what to test for jump out at me when I'm half asleep.
Does anyone else have experiences like that? Or any idea about why it happens?
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2003 : 00:34:33 [Permalink]
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| I have had similar experiences while coding. Personally I tend to get more and more myopic the longer I am drilling on a frustrating problem in a single session. When I am dozing off and coming to semi-concious stages intermittently, I find myself thinking about the problem more abstractly. Alot of times this gives me alternate paths to try that I wasn't seeing when I was drilling on the problem earlier. |
Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 04:47:22 [Permalink]
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| You solve problems during the day, too. You just think it's more interesting when you solve them at night. How about that? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 07:54:19 [Permalink]
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As a computer programmer I often have such revelations :> as I lay in bed either waking or falling asleep. I wonder how many I have lost though between then and actually implementing the solution :>.
ktesibios I just started a new hobby late last year of robotics and I have been learning circuit design and basic electronics. Maybe I will have to hit you up with a question or two when I get stumped :>. I got a breadboard and a decent collection of components that I have salvaged or bought from various online surplus shops. By the way I have already had a few nearly asleep enlightenments about my circuits but so far they have all been wrong :<.
Edited to add this:
I think one of the reasons for these, is that when we are away from our work, whether it be a computer monitor or a breadboard we can think more freely and be more relaxed and often think more clearly (and more conistently). I also often have such moments about what will hopefully be my new career, physical anthropology and even about ideas for posts on this board. |
| Edited by - jmcginn on 03/06/2003 07:56:35 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 08:57:30 [Permalink]
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ktesibios and LordofEntropy have had very different experiences than I. I'll come up with some solution to a coding problem while drifting off (or even in a dream), and be thinking, "Wow! This is great! I can't wait to implement this tomorrow!" This happens to me perhaps three or four times a year.
I wake the next day, and I can't believe what I was thinking. The ideas I get would either (a) work but be impractical (requiring terabytes of RAM, for example), or (b) require whole new classes of processor that haven't yet been invented. The stuff I come up during those night-time hours when I'm not fully awake is about as good as my driving when I'm not fully awake: craptacular.
Now, if I'm away from work, relaxing at home, and awake, I can come up with new and interesting solutions to work problems. And those ideas will actually solve the problems without requiring alien technology.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 10:37:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
Something I've been wondering about lately: I've noticed that some of my best problem-solving thinking gets done when I'm not really officially thinking at all, in that peculiar zone between wakefulness and sleep.
A couple of examples:
I was working on a personal circuit design project (a little something to use in the studio). I had already designed, breadboarded and debugged three of the four main sections of the whole thing, and the fourth was completely stumping me. The approach I had originally intended to take had turned out to be a dead end.
After spending a few hours trying to think of a solution, I was lying in bed nearly asleep- and the solution popped into my head just like *snap*, so vividly that I saw the schematic for it in my mind's eye. That woke me up pretty well, and I spent another little while working out the details in my head.
It worked. I had to revise it slightly, but the problem was solved, and pretty soon I was using the finished product in sessions.
Recently, I was working on a little bit of AC circuit analysis. It was really a simple problem, but I was out of practice. I spent a couple of hours pushing the equations around on paper, and every time I thought I was done I realized "Aw #$%^, that can't be right."
Later, relaxing in bed before nodding out, I solved the whole thing in my head. When I tried it out on paper the next day, it turned out to be right.
Similar things happen fairly often at work. If I've gotten to the end of a shift still stumped by a troubleshooting problem, I'm quite likely to have a whole new hypothesis about what's wrong and what to test for jump out at me when I'm half asleep.
Does anyone else have experiences like that? Or any idea about why it happens?
I bet Darwin Alogos would attribute these hypnogogic insights to divine revelation!  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 10:39:10 [Permalink]
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Well, i am scarcly computer literate, but I have built a few race engines (motorcycle), and done a lot of welding and fabrication. The same has often happened to me.
When I hit a problem where it seeme that no matter what I do it's wrong, I simply go to doing something else. In time, I'll 'get a feeling' and more often than not, the solution is there.
I think that what I call the 'back of the mind' never lets the problem go. While I'm concentrating on something else, it's still worrying at it with no consious effort on my part.
Nothing special here, I think. Everybody can do it, except... Nevermind! 
This not only applies to work, but social and economic matters, and indeed writing, as well.
Beautiful, is it not?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 19:28:33 [Permalink]
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I agree that this kind of realization happens to me often. If I am worrying through a (mathematical) proof, my most unusual (and often best) ideas come to me while I am in the shower, right after I wake up.
Gorgo brought up an interesting point, though. Perhaps this is like the street light phenomenon? You expect to solve problems while you are working on them, so you aren't surprised by that. Just like street lights turning off when you walk underneath them, you only notice them because you don't expect it to happen. |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 21:58:04 [Permalink]
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For me I don't think the "dream state" problem solving is really anything special. I just seem to lose the tunnel vision approach that I tend to get locked into when banging my head on a problem. I seem to "drift" around other possibilities. Many of which don't work, but sometimes I think about options I was unable to see while heading down a path with the blinders I start to develop the longer and more frustrating a problem becomes.
Going on a walk or doing another activity usually doesn't work for me because I'll still focus on the problem, typically trying to fight down the thought path I've started.
Time of day doesn't matter, it is the process of getting ready to go to sleep, where I am finally able to let go, and sometimes view the problem differently.
So while Gorgo seems to basically say it is no different than any other time, just that you think it is, condenscendingly. I think that ignores that people adopt different thought modes for their enviroment, even if the "modes" are self-imposed.
I've seen remarkable differences in the thought processes of people in response to their enviroment such as workplace, authority figures, crowds, quick-decision situations, high-stress, socializing, fights, public speaking, relaxing, intimacy, half-awake, and etc.
For me it takes my deciding to lay down and go to sleep(night or day) to get my mind of the frustrating track and to try to step back and see the whole problem again. Do I solve problems at other times? Yes. Do I find solutions when I've been banging my head on the problem for 16 hours by taking a walk or continuing to beat my head? No. Do I have an easier time absracting problems as I am trying to fall asleep? Yes. Is this self-imposed and conditioned? Yes. Being self-imposed and conditioned, does that make the affect any less real? No.
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Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 05:42:45 [Permalink]
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| Sorry if what I said seemed condescending. Maybe the way I wrote it. I'm not saying that it isn't helpful to relax and stop fighting yourself and think about something else for a while , and that those different things help. I'm just asking if you don't do that as much while you're awake and you don't think it's as interesting as when you're about to go to sleep, or even during your sleep. I'm no expert on this or any other subject, just a question. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 09:32:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Sorry if what I said seemed condescending. Maybe the way I wrote it. I'm not saying that it isn't helpful to relax and stop fighting yourself and think about something else for a while , and that those different things help. I'm just asking if you don't do that as much while you're awake and you don't think it's as interesting as when you're about to go to sleep, or even during your sleep. I'm no expert on this or any other subject, just a question.
I think that you've got a pretty good take on it, Gorgo, and didn't find you're earlier post condescending at all.
I'm noticed the effect too but am going to try a twist on attempting an explanation---without, I hope, getting into too much trouble.
Super String Theory is some 'new' mathematical physics which has as a fundamental 6 dimensions more than the usual Space-time.
The 6 that I'm thinking about are said to be "curled up" very, very tightly. In mathematics "dimensions" are orthogonal/perpendicular to one another (--as with heigth x width x depth).
If the 6 "curled up" dimensions are orthogonal to us (uh---Space-time) and are also mutually orthogonal to each other (--which they should be if they are truly "dimensions"--), then you could make a guess (--based on symmetry--) that the 6 are really two 3-dimension spaces (--with us in physical space-time being another 3-dimension space).
THEN: We have our physical bodies; we have 3 dimensions for our intellect; and we have 3 dimensions for "spiritual" kinds of things. (We know something about our intellect; but very little about our "spirits": Maybe some day.)
So: During working-day time, our brain-interface keeps the 3-d intellect-space 'tied up'; but during rest-time the intellect-space is free to communicate its genius to our plodding, electro-chemical brains and-----Voila! We get a insight. 
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 15:38:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Well, i am scarcly computer literate, but I have built a few race engines (motorcycle), and done a lot of welding and fabrication. The same has often happened to me.
When I hit a problem where it seeme that no matter what I do it's wrong, I simply go to doing something else. In time, I'll 'get a feeling' and more often than not, the solution is there.
I think that what I call the 'back of the mind' never lets the problem go. While I'm concentrating on something else, it's still worrying at it with no consious effort on my part.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofEntropy
For me I don't think the "dream state" problem solving is really anything special. I just seem to lose the tunnel vision approach that I tend to get locked into when banging my head on a problem. I seem to "drift" around other possibilities. Many of which don't work, but sometimes I think about options I was unable to see while heading down a path with the blinders I start to develop the longer and more frustrating a problem becomes.
Those are themes that will probably be familiar to anyone who does any variety of troubleshooting regularly.
I've learned to make it a rule that as soon as I see that I've come around in a circle to stop, go back to the start of the problem and look for places where the trail might actually lead in a different direction than I originally thought.
Sometimes taking a break and working on something different or even leaving it overnight really help in breaking out of my assumptions and differentiating between the footprint and the barrel of creosote.
And it does sometimes seem as if my brain has some sort of capacity for running a task in the background and throwing up a dialog box when it has a result.
quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
I agree that this kind of realization happens to me often. If I am worrying through a (mathematical) proof, my most unusual (and often best) ideas come to me while I am in the shower, right after I wake up.
Gorgo brought up an interesting point, though. Perhaps this is like the street light phenomenon? You expect to solve problems while you are working on them, so you aren't surprised by that. Just like street lights turning off when you walk underneath them, you only notice them because you don't expect it to happen.
Yeah, I've found that a nice hot shower does seem to be an insight facilitator. There seems to be something about physical relaxation that helps in crystallizing a new idea to test.
Perhaps I am bringing some selective memory to my impressions. I know that sometimes the Grand Nocturnal Revelation about Life, the Universe and Everything, writen down and examined the next day, turns out to be something like "there's a funny smell in the room". OTOH, sometimes the insights that pop up when they're not expected turn out to be useful and valuable.
Maybe there's some fodder for students of psychology here.
Whatever the cause, whether I'm trying to make something, fix something or learn something, those "now I get it" moments are, for me, well up in the list of Life's Delights.
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 17:13:55 [Permalink]
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| If it were not for examples such as these Prof. Brown would have never built the Flux Capacitor....... |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 17:28:47 [Permalink]
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Sorry Gorgo, I did read your comment different than you intended, my apologies.
I understand what you are saying. Something like the number 23 in Robert Anton Wilson's books. It seems to be special because attention is being paid to it now, making it special. It could've easily been 15, 104, sleep, or shower.
I am of the thought that, while my brain is certainly capable of the mode of thought I seem to fall into before/during sleep at any given time. I've conditioned myself to expect that mode of thought only at those times. Not just to me observing after the fact, but it has become self-fulfilling.
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Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
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