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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula




For your eyes only...








Franciscan Order and Croat Terrorists linked to Bosnian shrine of Medjugorje, International News Analysis, March 18, 2003


US State Department calls Medjugorje Godforsaken Place, Kronzer Foundation


London - A panel of judges in Rome is expected to announce shortly that the death of "God's banker" Roberto Calvi, found strung up under Blackfriars Bridge in London in June 1982, was murder, Cape Times, February 19, 2003


Vatican Bank and Bishop Marcinkus, Phoenix New Times, February 13, 2003


Nazi Salutes Openly Used in Zagreb, BBC, February 6, 2003


Queen of Profits, Medjugorje Draws Thousands of Pilgrims and Dollars,Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission Newspaper, December 2002


Leading Medjugorje Franciscan, Barred from Cathedral, Accused of Sex Crimes, Washington Post, November 20, 2002


Special Fund for former slave laborers fopm Serbia


Vatican's Banker was Murdered, BBC, October 25, 2002


Vatican to Face its Pedophilia Crimes before the UN, October 14, 2002


New Clue Truns up in God's Banker's Death,October 14, 2002, The Guardian


Milosevic Implicates Vatican Bank in Arms Deal, Radio Netherlands, September 27, 2002


Medjugorje implicated in Pedophile Sex Tourism Scandal, Woburn News, September 6, 2002


Pedophile Priests at Medjugorje Exposed, Portugal News, August 31, 2002


VATICAN BANK IS SUED IN US OVER CHARITY SCANDAL , The Mail on Sunday Newspaper, August 11, 2002


John Loftus is the Plaintiffs' Expert Witness against the Vatican Bank defendants. It is possible that John Loftus may know more intelligence secrets than anyone alive.


Suit Claims Vatican Knew, Failed to Block Insurance Scheme, Cleveland Plain Dealer, May 26, 2002


Full Copy of Complaint filed by Five States Against Martin Frankel and the Holy See for Insurance Fraud and Racketeering


Missouri Insurance Regulators have sued the Vatican, alleging that Roman Catholic Church officials conspired to launder millions of dollars looted in one of the largest scandals to rock the U.S. insurance industry. Kansas City Star, May 11, 2002


Vatican Sexual Exploitation of Children Violates International Law, Inter Press Service, April 23, 2002


Lawsuit (Complete text) against the Holy See for Sexual Abuse Cover Up, Vatican accused of Protecting Pedophiles


Vatican "FAQ" WCBV TV Boston


Long-awaited forensic tests into the death of Vatican banker Roberto Calvi - found hanging from a bridge in London in 1982 - are reported to show he was murdered. BBC News, April 19, 2002


The Vatican's Worldly Assets, The Independent, April 19, 2002


Hundreds Sue Vatican Over Child Sex Abuse, April 6, 2002, Sydney Morning Herald


15 Year Old Boy Raped by "Phony" Franciscan Monk at Ustashe Shrine of Medjugorje Bosnia, April 2, 2002, BusinessWire


A JUDGE in Rome ordered that a controversial film about the mysterious death of a Vatican-linked banker be withdrawn from cinemas across Italy yesterday after a complaint by a businessman with alleged Mafia links that it damages his reputation and honour, London Times, March 28, 2002


BBC, March 8, 2002, Twenty years after he was found hanging from a London bridge, a film opens in Italy on Friday 8 March which reignites the controversy about what happened to Vatican banker Roberto Calvi.


New film portrays Vatican Bank at the centre of a conspiracy involving drug-running mafiosi, corrupt bankers and politicians, arms traders, Freemasons and spies. London Times, February 27, 2002.


Witness to Jasenovac's Hell, Hidden history, unknown to Western audiences, the Jasenovac concentration camp, the so-called "Balkan Auschwitz," was a place of torture and death for hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies.


Irish Times, February 2, 2002, The Real Odessa


BBC, Author Blames Vatican for Holocaust, January 15, 2002


German Press Agency, December 10, 2001, Croatian Nationalists Attack over Nazi Monument


Croatian Medjugorje Group Labeled A Cult, Associated Press, December 13, 2001


Letter to President Mesic of Croatia by Serbian Unity Congress re: Ustashe Atrocities, November 27, 2001


Daily Telegraph, November 19, 2001, Vatican Named as Major Money Laundering Center


Pavelic, the Cult of Medjugorje, Genocide of the Serbs, more


Vatican Fraud Ring Exposed, Two Senior Officials Charged, Nov. 7, 2001, The Guardian


Our Lady of Lies, the Franciscans and Medjugorje, Salon Magazine


More on Vatican WWII Cover Up, Jerusalem Post, November 2, 2001


Vatican Continues to Deny Access to World War II Archives, October 19, 2001, Daily Telegraph


Ustashe War Criminals and Terrorists in Australia, Australia Broadcasting Corp.


Vatican denies Fraud, Financial Times, Sept. 3, 2001


Vatican Accused of Nazi Era Cover Up, July 25, 2001, The Guardian


Vatican Bank Official Faces Criminal Charges, July 17, 2001


Medjugorje and Modernization


How the Vatican Bank was used by swindler Martin Frankel


Deep Black Lies by David Guyatt, one of plaintiffs' expert witnesses

Jews Protest Beatification of Ustashe Cardinal,JTA News


Franciscan Controlled Bank Raided by UN Forces - Ties to Croat Extremists and Medjugorje Alleged


Croatian War Criminals Linked to Franciscan Order and Marianist Cult

Ustashe Terror Today in Zagreb


Pope to Pray at Nazi Gold Bank, Irish Independent, April 6, 2000


A Papal Ring for Dale? Frankel uses Vatican Bank and is busted for Insurance Fraud. Madison County Journal


Clero-Fascist Studies Project


Xinhua News Agency, October 3, 2000, Vatican bank Involved in Mafia's Online Washing Money


The Role of the Catholic Church in Yugoslavia's Holocaust


The Jasenovac Research Institute


Anti Semitism in Croatia Today


Official US State Department report on the "Fate of the Wartime Ustasha Treasury" is available on this page.

Croatian volunteers in the Nazi Army.

Ustashe atrocities documented
Warning! This material is extremely disturbing.

The Vatican Pipeline, $170 million in Nazi Gold to the Vatican, Time Magazine


Ustashe movement documented.

Online book, "The Vatican's Holocaust" by Avro Manhattan

The Vatican, Croatia, and Nazi Gold, Flame Magazine

Washing Money in the Holy See, Fortune magazine, August 1999

US World News Report, March 30, 1998, Did gold stolen by Croatian fascists reach the Vatican?

What is the Vatican Hiding? The Vatican's Complicity in Genocide in Fascist Croatia by Barry Lituchy

The Ghosts of Surmanci: Queen of Peace, Ethnic Cleansing, Ruined Lives

US World News Report 11/15/99: Did a Wartime Pope Anticipate Nazi Victory?

Ustasha Loot from Holocaust Victims Enriched Eva Peron

Nazi Nostalgia in Croatia

Gelli Arrest Focuses Attention on Vatican Bank, American Atheists, September 1998

Three bankers Who Brought Scandal to the Vatican, Irish Times, Aug. 28, 1998

CNN: Vatican Drawn Into Scandal Over Nazi Gold, July 22, 1997

Asian Week, 12/15/2000: Mixed Reactions to Wartime Slavery Settlement

Flame Magazine article by Jonathan Levy, The California Cure for Japanese War Crimes

Japanese War Crimes in the Pacific




Intro | Newsletter | Claim Form | Press

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

If you were a plaintiff you wouln't be so sure now, would you ?, but since you are a wicca. Who am I to argue with a witch?

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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

If you were a plaintiff you wouln't be so sure now, would you ?, but since you are a wicca. Who am I to argue with a witch?

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Boy, does it hurt to be that ignorant?

The analysis that was at the bottom of the thread had to do with the accuracy of the news sources and contentions. So far, you had a news source which revels in posting unsubstantiated rumor, other news sources which are talking about other things where they quote people spouting unsubstantiated rumors, and completely unrelated subjects such as Japanese war crimes. If I was a plantiff, I would have a lot better evidence of wrong doing before forwarding such statements. You, quite frankly, don't.

This is logic talking, boy. Not religion. The statement that I made identifying my religion was to head off petulant assertions that the opponent must be Catholic. Seen it before. Got tired of the crap. Why don't you try addressing the logic and serious failures in proof instead of blowing smoke up my butt by trotting out more unsubstantiated rumors?

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Originally posted by Caligula

Well. what would you say if I told you that there's plenty of evidence out there ?.Are you gonna refute it all,'cause if that's gonna be the case, then why post it ?
And I can't believe you want to defend the Vatican (????)

quote:

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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

If you were a plaintiff you wouln't be so sure now, would you ?, but since you are a wicca. Who am I to argue with a witch?

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Boy, does it hurt to be that ignorant?

The analysis that was at the bottom of the thread had to do with the accuracy of the news sources and contentions. So far, you had a news source which revels in posting unsubstantiated rumor, other news sources which are talking about other things where they quote people spouting unsubstantiated rumors, and completely unrelated subjects such as Japanese war crimes. If I was a plantiff, I would have a lot better evidence of wrong doing before forwarding such statements. You, quite frankly, don't.

This is logic talking, boy. Not religion. The statement that I made identifying my religion was to head off petulant assertions that the opponent must be Catholic. Seen it before. Got tired of the crap. Why don't you try addressing the logic and serious failures in proof instead of blowing smoke up my butt by trotting out more unsubstantiated rumors?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

Well. what would you say if I told you that there's plenty of evidence out there ?.Are you gonna refute it all,'cause if that's gonna be the case, then why post it ?
And I can't believe you want to defend the Vatican (????)

quote:

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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

If you were a plaintiff you wouln't be so sure now, would you ?, but since you are a wicca. Who am I to argue with a witch?

---

Boy, does it hurt to be that ignorant?

The analysis that was at the bottom of the thread had to do with the accuracy of the news sources and contentions. So far, you had a news source which revels in posting unsubstantiated rumor, other news sources which are talking about other things where they quote people spouting unsubstantiated rumors, and completely unrelated subjects such as Japanese war crimes. If I was a plantiff, I would have a lot better evidence of wrong doing before forwarding such statements. You, quite frankly, don't.

This is logic talking, boy. Not religion. The statement that I made identifying my religion was to head off petulant assertions that the opponent must be Catholic. Seen it before. Got tired of the crap. Why don't you try addressing the logic and serious failures in proof instead of blowing smoke up my butt by trotting out more unsubstantiated rumors?

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There is plenty of evidence? Where? You haven't provided any of it.

I intend on analyzing it and determine whether it is valid or not. I will point out inconsistencies and problems with sources. I will also admit if the evidence is valid. If your "evidence" cannot stand up to scrutiny, it isn't valid evidence.

I speak out against misinformation on all religions and atheism. I gladly will listen to practioners of those religions/philosophies to get a more accurate idea of what it means. Also, the name of this place is skeptic friends network. What did you expect? People here to just accept what you say about a religion/philosophy other than your own as the absolute truth? This isn't about defending the Vatican. This is about insisting on facts, not conjecture and unsubstantiated rumor.

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Originally posted by Caligula

What a grouch !...Well,I shall provide.You're on,buddy...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

What a grouch !...Well,I shall provide.You're on,buddy...

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I look forward to it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

What a grouch !...Well,I shall provide.You're on,buddy...

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I look forward to it.

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Originally posted by Caligula

What now ? You want more ? Ask the Pope for the rest.


Pope Apologises For 2000 Years Of Horror
It has been revealed recently that the Vatican is about to release a statement apologising for the atrocities committed over the last two thousand years by the Roman Catholic Church.
As history books have documented, the Church has been engaged in a seemingly endless crusade of torture, murder, burning and dismemberment for almost twenty centuries. In the run-up to the Christian Millenium, the Holy See thinks it is time to wipe the slate clean, to turn over a new leaf, to begin again. Apologising and asking the world to forgive the Vatican for its reign of physical and mental terror is the first step along this path.

The Church could apologise for being directly or indirectly responsible for some of the following atrocities:

The burning of countless men, women and children for alleged witchcraft, without anything approaching a fair trial.
The often-fatal persecution of people who gave the real world precedence over Catholic doctrines; daring to suggest, among other things, that the Earth orbitted the Sun. The resultant retardation of scientific, technological and medicinal progress.
The destruction of thousands of families as parents and children witnessed their loved ones dragged off to be questioned by the Inquisition (of which there were several), and often murdered as a result.
The innumerable lives wasted, and the generations of people who have not been born as a direct result of these and other bloody massacres in the name of a merciful, loving, benevolent Christ.
The persecution of (and occasionally wars against) followers of other religions.
The corruption of Kings and politicians throughout the Dark Ages to ensure that the Church keeps a strangle-hold on the lives of the population.
The obliteration of indigenous cultures as the Church cut a swathe of destruction among "heathen" continents, taking their lives, property and wealth for itself.
Presumably, the Vatican will also renounce any belief in the Devil and therefore deny the sacrifice that Christ is alleged to have made on the cross. If people were falsely accused of being in league with Satan (and burned because of this), then they cannot actually have had a pact with the Devil. If the Pope still believes that Satan exists, then he has no reason to apologise for the burning of witches. If he apologises for witch-burning, he is admitting that Satan does not actually interfere with human affairs, and probably does not even exist. If Satan does not exist, then the whole doctrine of Original Sin crumbles, and with it the Atonement of Jesus on the cross.

Hopefully in a few years, the Church will also apologise for its more recent dogmatic crimes, such as the bans on contraception and abortion, which have resulted in untold misery for hundreds of thousands of people.

So, after two hundred decades of slaughter, murder, assassination, persecution, ignorance, theft, corruption and other assorted crimes against humanity, the Vatican is going to say "Sorry".

Well, gee thanks.
-



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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

What a grouch !...Well,I shall provide.You're on,buddy...

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I look forward to it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The NetArchitect

I guess I have a couple of questions concerning this specific line of thought which is being followed here, with especially high expectations of some kind of a thought provoking outcome.

1.) How does Bishop Paul Marcinkus' (once head of the Vatican bank) Connection with the First National Bank of Cicero, effect the relationship between the Gianinni Family, Roger D'Onofrio and the Archbishop of Barcelona, Spain?

(who are still tied through mafia/CIA links to the Vatican Bank, since the smuggling of osmium nuclear bomb triggers, superior quality counterfeit currency, and stolen gold bullion. Reported early in December, 1995, date-lined Rome and Naples, Italy, by Reuters, United Press International, and Associated Press. The D'Onofrio Affair.)

2.) How does Banca Nazionale Delavoro, BNL, Italy's largest, owned in part by the Vatican; Connect to the First National Bank of Cicero?

3.) Does Marc Rich (Who has been the paymaster for Gladio), still have connections to Bush Jr. and Sr. through Arbusto Energy and Zappata Oil? And if so are there accounts linking the Linking them all together?

Perhaps the following 16 Accounts help in making the connection a bit more easily understandable:

===EX 4505 3218 Credit Suisse corrected to EX 4505 9065 3218 Credit Suisse [Switzerland]

===AL 1946 3078 51 Banco de Espana [see the documents referring also to a bank in Malaga, Spain]

===31002 871653 Belgium Cre Lux [Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, notorious money laundry center]

===9517 30013-5-00 Wien ONB [Vienna, Austria].

===918762500-10-150 ANB

===2577321836550 Vaduz [principality of Liechtenstein, capital being Vaduz; situated between Austria and Switzerland]

===328671-11-08-155 Credit Lyon [One of France's largest banks, Credit Lyonnaise.]

===4402010-00-08 ANB ===3712 0915 67172 AMEX transfer #

===714-16782-005-092-0 Cr Lyonnaise

===3712 0012 10501 Citi Bank

===440 40 1213 ANB

===440 68 1211 ANB

===6100 52 1762 501 Chase Man [Rockefeller Family flagship]

===9106 1250 01 086219 Citi Bank

===01156 86 7918 4578 01 World Bank

What do the Above mentioned Accounts have in common, besides the Chicago Board of Mecrhantile?

Answer: Marc Rich.

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb06?ARBUSTO_ENERGY_INC

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01/cL
http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01/dF
http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01/eE
http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01/UK

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quote:

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Originally posted by Caligula

Ha! I couldn't have done better than that even if I tried.
That's very powerful evidence. Maybe Valiant dancer could see that the lynching or burnings or torture don't necessarily have to be on the human form,after all this is the Vatican we are talking about.Money is their evil today,power and greed.It's an old corrupted enterprise and, in my opinion should be abolished, just like all religions,which divide humanity and tirelessly cause wars.
Rene

Here is food for thought :

This letter was printed yesterday in the local paper. It was
written by
a retired friend of mine. He can count on hate mail, hate telephone
calls, and hate letters to the editor. BTW, the editor wrote a
column
that he hated printing these kinds of letters, but felt he should
uphold
free speech and he felt secure that the man upstairs was in charge.

To the Editor:
Let's ban religions. Most religious adherents read their bible.
They
pray. They attend a church or its equivalent. They speak of "Being
Born Again".They easily commit transgressions and just as easily ask
for
forgiveness.They send missionaries all over the world to convert
those
who they believe must believe like them.

Let's ban religions because: Most religions, including Catholic and
Protestant, believe in and support war. Most religions, including
Catholic and Protestant, believe there is only one "True" god, their
God. A vast majority of adherents do not benefit from religious
teachings except for purposes of inner peace, self satisfaction, and
display. They reject religious tenets that impose restrictions on
their
behavior. They prefer war over peace. They prefer killing over
life.
They prefer obtaining wealth for a few over eliminating abject
poverty
and social needs. They prefer pollution over cleanliness. They
prefer
corruption in government and industry over propriety. They prefer
complacency over activism.

An example of war over peace, wealth over poverty, complacency over
activism, etc. is the 911 incident which killed 3000+ and the 35,000
children worldwide who died the same day of hunger. That hunger
continues while we spend billions on killing with our weapons of mass
destruction in an unprovoked war.

Banning religions, which in themselves are forms of government, will
benefit mankind eliminating one of the two major sources causing
wars.
The remaining source, the governments of our countries, will
continue to
be a problem as long as citizens permit their governments to operate
autocratically.

By invitation only :
To: smartgroup2@yahoogroups.com (For an invitation, you must e-mail me at doriia2002@yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: [smartgroup2] Re: "It's the religion,stupid"

quote:

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Originally posted by The NetArchitect

I guess I have a couple of questions concerning this specific line of thought which is being followed here, with especially high expectations of some kind of a thought provoking outcome.

1.) How does Bishop Paul Marcinkus' (once head of the Vatican bank) Connection with the First National Bank of Cicero, effect the relationship between the Gianinni Family, Roger D'Onofrio and the Archbishop of Barcelona, Spain?

(who are still tied through mafia/CIA links to the Vatican Bank, since the smuggling of osmium nuclear bomb triggers, superior quality counterfeit currency, and stolen gold bullion. Reported early in December, 1995, date-lined Rome and Naples, Italy, by Reuters, United Press International, and Associated Press. The D'Onofrio Affair.)

2.) How does Banca Nazionale Delavoro, BNL, Italy's largest, owned in part by the Vatican; Connect to the First National Bank of Cicero?

3.) Does Marc Rich (Who has been the paymaster for Gladio), still have connections to Bush Jr. and Sr. through Arbusto Energy and Zappata Oil? And if so are there accounts linking the Linking them all together?

Perhaps the following 16 Accounts help in making the connection a bit more easily understandable:

===EX 4505 3218 Credit Suisse corrected to EX 4505 9065 3218 Credit Suisse [Switzerland]

===AL 1946 3078 51 Banco de Espana [see the documents referring also to a bank in Malaga, Spain]

===31002 871653 Belgium Cre Lux [Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, notorious money laundry center]

===9517 30013-5-00 Wien ONB [Vienna, Austria].

===918762500-10-150 ANB

===2577321836550 Vaduz [principality of Liechtenstein, capital being Vaduz; situated between Austria and Switzerland]

===328671-11-08-155 Credit Lyon [One of France's largest banks, Credit Lyonnaise.]

===4402010-00-08 ANB ===3712 0915 67172 AMEX transfer #

===714-16782-005-092-0 Cr Lyonnaise

===3712 0012 10501 Citi Bank

===440 40 1213 ANB

===440 68 1211 ANB

===6100 52 1762 501 Chase Man [Rockefeller Family flagship]

===9106 1250 01 086219 Citi Bank

===01156 86 7918 4578 01 World Bank

What do the Above mentioned Accounts have in common, besides the Chicago Board of Mecrhantile?

Answer: Marc Rich.

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb06?ARBUSTO_ENERGY_INC

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01/cL
http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01/dF
http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01/eE
http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01/UK

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