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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2003 : 10:04:51
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Been having a bit of an e-mail battle with a guy from work and he asked me for my opinion why I though the war was bad for the world. I thought I'd post it and give you guys a chance to respond. I'll probably get blown outta the water by you guys, but here it is....
quote:
I have no doubt that sanctions will be lifted once America and its coalition forces occupy Iraq. The question begs, will the Iraqi people be better off? The answer is, probably, yes. Although time will tell. This war will be a long and hard struggle and many innocent Americans, Brits, Australians and Iraqi's will die or get injured in the process.
* The Arab world, as proven by the Council of Arab nations, is against this war, believing that the current military action will destabilise the region rather than bring democracy and peace as the American's say they are trying to do. This is evident in what is the first of many suicide bombings against American soldiers that happened earlier this week. America has not learnt from the mistakes made by Israel, the greater the force applied to people willing to fight for a country that is or could be taken from their control, the more devious the reprisals become...i.e. Palestinians. War against terrorism is working well so far.....not.
* The fact that the Bush Administration say that they are fighting for the freedom of the Iraqi people, whilst taking away the civil rights of it's own citizens. Have a quick read of the section for Homeland Security at www.whitehouse.gov and you will be alarmed at what can happen to a person suspected being a threat to America. Bluntly, you ain't innocent until proven guilty anymore, it's the other way around. Just ask David Hicks in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
* This is a pre-emptive war against a sovereign nation, which is ssetting a dangerous precedent. If America can legitimately do it, imagine more frightening nations such as China or South Korea launching a pre-emptive strike on those nations that they fear might attack them. China as has been reported today is already starting to beef up its defence spending.
* The rationale for this war has been made up of forged and plagiarised documents, sketchy satellite evidence, unsubstantiated links between Saddam Hussein's Baath Party and Al-Queda and the endless "you're either with us or against us" rhetoric. Big on words, short on facts. Using similar tactics as the McCarthyist ideals of the 50's and 60's ("Reds under the bed" and the infamous "duck and cover"), the current administration is using scare tactics to convince the populace of the need for this war. At least in the cold war, the fact that there were two superpowers, both with the ability to destroy the world stopped a possible war by way of stockpiling weapons. One had to win, and America, as the sole remaining superpower must act responsibly, not in an reactionary manner.
* There is no doubt that Iraq possesses WMD, however their ability to deploy them or smuggle them out of the country with such a massive build up of force on its borders and international interest is minimal at best, the weapons inspectors could have done the job.
* Using the excuse that Iraq has not conformed to U.N. resolutions 1141, 678 and 687 is overtly hypocritical considering Israel has ignored over 20 resolutions since 1967. Other countries have been guilty of it as well. Guess who used their power of veto in the case of Israel, yup America. In fact America has used its power of veto on the Security Council a staggering 78 times, second only to Russia. France now doesn't seem that bad. However that nation, as well as Germany are cast as the bad guys or "Old" Europe.
* The Bush Administration has used the military and economic power of their nation to almost single-handedly destroy the U.N and NATO, two organisations, whilst far from perfect, have been the best way to solve problems of international diplomacy since WW2.
* In the case of Australia fighting in this war, we have not ever been directly threatened by this country, but we are fighting its people on their soil. What would you do if the situation were reversed?
This war may liberate the Iraqi people from Hussein's iron grip, but the ramifications from it will be felt world wide for many years to come. CNN and FOX will continue to show us all happy snaps of "shock and awe" and precision bombing, but will omit the tragic human consequence of war. This is not a just war, it is an invasion pure and simple. I supported the U.S. and her allies in '91, but this one just doesn't sit right with me. First Iraq, and as Herr Donald Rumsfeld said yesterday, Syria and Iran are in trouble. How long will it last, and can America justify jeopardising world peace for the benefit of a chosen few. Bush wants democracy in the Middle East, and he got it when the Turkish parliament voted against the coalition
using Turkey as a base for a northern front no matter how much cash got thrown at them. Ironic isn't it!!!!!!
That's it........as Kent Brockman says...."My two cents worth"
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2003 : 11:17:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
Been having a bit of an e-mail battle with a guy from work and he asked me for my opinion why I though the war was bad for the world. I thought I'd post it and give you guys a chance to respond. I'll probably get blown outta the water by you guys, but here it is....
quote:
I have no doubt that sanctions will be lifted once America and its coalition forces occupy Iraq. The question begs, will the Iraqi people be better off? The answer is, probably, yes. Although time will tell. This war will be a long and hard struggle and many innocent Americans, Brits, Australians and Iraqi's will die or get injured in the process.
* The Arab world, as proven by the Council of Arab nations, is against this war, believing that the current military action will destabilise the region rather than bring democracy and peace as the American's say they are trying to do. This is evident in what is the first of many suicide bombings against American soldiers that happened earlier this week. America has not learnt from the mistakes made by Israel, the greater the force applied to people willing to fight for a country that is or could be taken from their control, the more devious the reprisals become...i.e. Palestinians. War against terrorism is working well so far.....not.
* The fact that the Bush Administration say that they are fighting for the freedom of the Iraqi people, whilst taking away the civil rights of it's own citizens. Have a quick read of the section for Homeland Security at www.whitehouse.gov and you will be alarmed at what can happen to a person suspected being a threat to America. Bluntly, you ain't innocent until proven guilty anymore, it's the other way around. Just ask David Hicks in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
* This is a pre-emptive war against a sovereign nation, which is ssetting a dangerous precedent. If America can legitimately do it, imagine more frightening nations such as China or South Korea launching a pre-emptive strike on those nations that they fear might attack them. China as has been reported today is already starting to beef up its defence spending.
* The rationale for this war has been made up of forged and plagiarised documents, sketchy satellite evidence, unsubstantiated links between Saddam Hussein's Baath Party and Al-Queda and the endless "you're either with us or against us" rhetoric. Big on words, short on facts. Using similar tactics as the McCarthyist ideals of the 50's and 60's ("Reds under the bed" and the infamous "duck and cover"), the current administration is using scare tactics to convince the populace of the need for this war. At least in the cold war, the fact that there were two superpowers, both with the ability to destroy the world stopped a possible war by way of stockpiling weapons. One had to win, and America, as the sole remaining superpower must act responsibly, not in an reactionary manner.
* There is no doubt that Iraq possesses WMD, however their ability to deploy them or smuggle them out of the country with such a massive build up of force on its borders and international interest is minimal at best, the weapons inspectors could have done the job.
* Using the excuse that Iraq has not conformed to U.N. resolutions 1141, 678 and 687 is overtly hypocritical considering Israel has ignored over 20 resolutions since 1967. Other countries have been guilty of it as well. Guess who used their power of veto in the case of Israel, yup America. In fact America has used its power of veto on the Security Council a staggering 78 times, second only to Russia. France now doesn't seem that bad. However that nation, as well as Germany are cast as the bad guys or "Old" Europe.
* The Bush Administration has used the military and economic power of their nation to almost single-handedly destroy the U.N and NATO, two organisations, whilst far from perfect, have been the best way to solve problems of international diplomacy since WW2.
* In the case of Australia fighting in this war, we have not ever been directly threatened by this country, but we are fighting its people on their soil. What would you do if the situation were reversed?
This war may liberate the Iraqi people from Hussein's iron grip, but the ramifications from it will be felt world wide for many years to come. CNN and FOX will continue to show us all happy snaps of "shock and awe" and precision bombing, but will omit the tragic human consequence of war. This is not a just war, it is an invasion pure and simple. I supported the U.S. and her allies in '91, but this one just doesn't sit right with me. First Iraq, and as Herr Donald Rumsfeld said yesterday, Syria and Iran are in trouble. How long will it last, and can America justify jeopardising world peace for the benefit of a chosen few. Bush wants democracy in the Middle East, and he got it when the Turkish parliament voted against the coalition
using Turkey as a base for a northern front no matter how much cash got thrown at them. Ironic isn't it!!!!!!
That's it........as Kent Brockman says...."My two cents worth"
I completely agree with quite a few points. Some I do not. Here are my comments.
1) The demonization of France by the US is a propaganda ploy by this administration to stiffle dissent. They likewise paint peaceful protesters with the same "must just be anti-American" brush.
2) There is some doubt that Iraq possesses WMDs. So far, only two Scud-B missiles have been launched and a few Al Samoud II missiles have been discovered. (The Al Samoud II missiles had been being destroyed before the opening of hostilities.) The main objection to these weapons platforms is that they could carry biological and chemical weapons. Lacking the biological and chemical weapons delegate these items to contraband equipment rather than WMD status. So far, no biological nor chemical weapons stockpiles, factories, nor use has occurred/been discovered.
3) Australia's government want to have a say in post-war Iraq. They indentified early on that Bush was hell bent for war.
4) Destabilization of the region. Where have I heard that before.... Oh. Yes. It was said by President George H. W. Bush on why he did not push on to Baghdad in 1991.
5) The provisions of the Patriot Act and Patriot Act II are well known and opposed by quite a few Americans. I have written my Congressmen about it. The walking assualt on the Bill of Rights, John Ashcroft, has been questioned by Congress. I still remain deeply concerned.
6) The rationale for the war also includes cherry picking of quotes from defectors. Those passages left out indicate that the biological and chemical weapons were destroyed/expended by the time of their defection.
7) If no biological or chemical weapons are discovered, Bush will have singlehandedly destroyed decades of foreign policy gains. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2003 : 13:57:19 [Permalink]
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"7) If no biological or chemical weapons are discovered, Bush will have singlehandedly destroyed decades of foreign policy gains."
Without cause... |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 02:41:12 [Permalink]
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Nice to see you using the word "arse"  |
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 04:25:34 [Permalink]
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On 3/20, the media was quick to follow the military's lead in calling some of the first missiles fired Scuds, but as far as I know, no Scuds have been fired. Associated Press reported on March 22 that "Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the vice director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told a Pentagon news conference that the Iraqis have not fired any Scuds and that U.S. forces searching airfields in the far western desert of Iraq have uncovered no missiles or launchers."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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riptor
Skeptic Friend
Germany
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 06:13:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
1) The demonization of France by the US is a propaganda ploy by this administration to stiffle dissent. They likewise paint peaceful protesters with the same "must just be anti-American" brush.
French bashing is something I find great. Am I right that Germany against war is considered with less - well - "hate"? |
Hail the Big bearded Jellyfish up in heaven above. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 07:50:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by riptor
quote:
1) The demonization of France by the US is a propaganda ploy by this administration to stiffle dissent. They likewise paint peaceful protesters with the same "must just be anti-American" brush.
French bashing is something I find great. Am I right that Germany against war is considered with less - well - "hate"?
The Germans are portrayed as being irrelevant rather than hated.
I still haven't got any answers from folks I was discussing the whole French Fries/Freedom Fries dust up and I asked why we weren't trying to boycott beer since the Austrians refused to let the US move troops through their country due to objections over the war.
***Sarcasm alert***
Come to think of it..... That's the difference. The French are considered arrogant wine-drinkers. The Germans are considered jovial beer drinkers. You can get a lot more support for boycotting wine by the common man in the US (typically beer drinkers) than a boycott on beer.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 11:13:24 [Permalink]
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Boycott Beer???!!! Somebody git a rope!!! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 14:08:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
"7) If no biological or chemical weapons are discovered, Bush will have singlehandedly destroyed decades of foreign policy gains."
Without cause...
Not without cause, irak has some oil is not it?
quote:
The Germans are portrayed as being irrelevant rather than hated.
I rather liked beeing bashed than ignored
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Whoa now. Easy big fella...there's always Budweiser which sounds foreign but comes from the good ol' USA.
Be carreful you might end up with Tcheck beer.
Just to say that I have not been posting or loging on SFN for a while, to come back under the known circonstances and finding so much common sense is a pleasure.
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Seb |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 14:19:38 [Permalink]
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I'm opening a can of worms here I think.....but what the hell
You Septic Tanks produce some wonderful things, muscle cars, bourbon, movies and computer games, but unfortunatly beer isn't one of them.....what you need after a hard week of work is a tasty full strength beer that relaxes you instead of making you pee all night....and no, Australian's don't drink Foster's, we export the crap for the rest of the word
Budwieser.......
****Gezza shivers from the painful memory of the last one he had**** |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 15:16:48 [Permalink]
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Gezzam I couldn't agree more, the majority of all mass produced American beer stinks and is as putrid as piss in a can. To get a good beer we have to pay $2-3 per bottle >:-< or mabye more.
Man when I was in London, it was beer heaven, numerous tasty beers from Belgium, good dark stouts, all on the cheap too, Can't get good beer, cheese, or chocolate on this side of the world without paying big bucks, but man we can get good beef :> (I shudder at the steak I tried in Paris, if you can call that piece of leather a steak). |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 18:59:17 [Permalink]
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Plenty of great beer in the US, you just have to buy it instead of the crap like Bud, Miller, Coors, Rainer, Oly, PBR, and etc. Noone I know ever drinks the crap stuff.
Just like your Fosters, the crappy beers are the ones that get exported, because the smaller production beer companies don't export theirs. |
Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2003 : 11:13:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofEntropy
Plenty of great beer in the US, you just have to buy it instead of the crap like Bud, Miller, Coors, Rainer, Oly, PBR, and etc. Noone I know ever drinks the crap stuff.
Just like your Fosters, the crappy beers are the ones that get exported, because the smaller production beer companies don't export theirs.
Yeah, we have some very good micro-breweries here on the west coast. Pale Ale And Amber Ale are qiute tasty! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2003 : 12:23:36 [Permalink]
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James Boags and Crown Lager are my beers of choice here in Oz.....
But for a bourbon, Jimmy Beam Black Label has taken on all comers and won.....maybe with the exception of Makers Mark...depending on the mood...
Wine is for wives, girlfriends and poofters... |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2003 : 05:42:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wine is for wives, girlfriends and poofters...
C'mon, man. I like my wine. Why just last night I polished off a whole pint of Mad Dog. Best damned buzz I've had in a week! |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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