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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2003 : 03:36:01
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Y'all know, I haven't voted for a Dem since Carter, but I think I'll start this time around only because a third party can't win and the alternative is unthinkable!
Check this crap out; http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib190
Sorry, but if you're a wage earner, this is f'ing ridiculous! I've never been so upset at a political party before, but these guys are driving me to use my vote just to get them out of office.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2003 : 05:33:40 [Permalink]
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This raises an important question, Who will liberate the American people of this repressive regime.
The funny thing is that on some other boards I frequent, the Christian folk just love Bush. Maybe their oppinions will change when work starts cutting into their "church" time. |
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2003 : 06:10:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rickm
This raises an important question, Who will liberate the American people of this repressive regime.
No one; I am pretty sure that no americans would want foreign troops on their territory. And this is also why they never send their troops all over the world for just about any reason. Oh, wait... |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2003 : 07:13:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Y'all know, I haven't voted for a Dem since Carter, but I think I'll start this time around only because a third party can't win and the alternative is unthinkable!
Check this crap out; http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib190
Sorry, but if you're a wage earner, this is f'ing ridiculous! I've never been so upset at a political party before, but these guys are driving me to use my vote just to get them out of office.
Sigh... Here we go again. I just wish some of these analysts would actually READ the damn bill before spouting the same stuff on AFL-CIO websites.
HR1119 Family Time Flexibility Act
Comp time provision
One and one half hours per one hour overtime worked can accrue at the employees discresion. A maximum value of 160 hours can be earned per calendar year after that comp time is not available to employees. Any unused comp time accrued and not taken by December 31st must be cashed out by the company as of that date with monetary compensation occurring no later than January 31st. The employer has the right to cash out unused comp time in anyones accrual bank in excess of 80 hours at the employers discresion. Participation in the comp time provision is voluntary on the part of the worker and employer. In the case of union shops, the union must agree to the provision as part of a collective bargaining agreement. Unlike other time banks, the employee may request in writing to discontinue a comp time agreement and be compensated for that time within 30 days.
Comp time under this proposed law is also a per event agreement, that is the employee must agree to the comp time trade off in lieu of overtime pay before the work is to be done. It cannot be given in lieu of overtime pay as a condition of employment nor at the employer's insistance. Neither can the employee be forced to take the comp time by the employer. At cash out, the employee is paid at the rate of pay that the comp time was earned or the rate of pay at the time the comp time is paid out whichever is higher.
S237
Amends 29 USC 213(a) to make pre-construction, construction, and post-construction architects, landscaping architects, engineering evaluators, surveyors, construction technology, and land use planners (all of which require 4-year degree or greater, professional licensure, professional certification, or at least 8 years of similar work experience) exempt employees.
S292
Amends 29 USC 213(a) to make licensed funeral directors and licensed embalmers exempt employees.
S317 Family Time and Workplace Flexibility Act
Has the same provisions that is in HR1119 plus the following.
Gives employers latitude to shift as much as 10 hours of work time from one work week to the next in a bi-weekly pay period without paying overtime. Must be part of a voluntary agreement by employees. In union shops, the provision must also be acceptable in a collective bargaining agreement. Basic work requirement no longer 40 hrs/week, but 80 hrs/week. Max hours shifted from one week to another is ten hours. (i.e. 50 hrs one week followed by 30 the next.) Potential is of pooling hours across pay periods so that hours worked per employee could be 30-50-50-30 but only if the employee agrees to it. May not be a condition of employment.
S495
Alledgedly amends 29 USC 213(a) to exempt system administrators, computer programmers, and systems analysts who make no less than $27.63 per hour (comes out to $57,500 yearly, heck, I don't even make that and I'm already an exempt employee) to make them exempt from overtime and minimum wage.
Source: http://thomas.loc.gov/home/c108query.html
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 06/06/2003 07:15:55 |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2003 : 10:02:14 [Permalink]
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| Yes, it's pretty outrageous. There is a thread on this topic here, if you want to read another article on it. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2003 : 12:01:14 [Permalink]
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I read the bill in its entirety when I first heard about it. While it's not quite as pernicious as it's been made out to be, there are still a few things in it that really can't be characterized as anything but intended to @#$% us hourly workers over.
For all it's language about prohibiting coercing workers into accepting "comp time" in lieu of overtime pay, anybody wanna bet that overtime won't simply dry up for workers who prefer to say "show me the money", in favor of those willing to go along?
Fat chance. It'll be "take the 'comp time' or no overtime at all for you". That might not quite qualify as "coercion" under a legalistic definition, but it doesn't change whose hand the bill puts the whip into.
Also, instead of requiring a written agrrement to take "comp time" instead of overtime pay, the bill accepts a written or "other verifiable agreement".
Let's see, would an email count? How hard is it to fake an email on the company IT system? Or a verbal agreement? Then all it takes to @#$% you out of your overtime is your boss plus one toady to "verify" that you said "yes".
And, in the event of a dispute about whether or not you agreed to "comp time", where is the burden of proof and the standards of proof? Conveniently not specified.
In addition, the boss can make you work a 50-hour week one week, a 30-hour week the next, and not have to cough up anything but your regular wages- not even "comp time"- for that 50-hour week.
This @#$% probably wouldn't injure me too much- California wage and hour laws are already stricter than the Federal equivalents, I happen to work in an odd field which is quite resistant to "outsourcing" and where people who genuinely know what they're doing are hard to find- and the boss knows it. But the workers farther down the ladder are likely to be @#$% upon by this.
V.D., if you really believe that this is anything but a "let's shovel some paybacks to our campaign contributors and take it out of those awful working-class people" measure, I've got this nice bridge available...
The theorists behind the Rethuglicans have been pretty clear that what they want is to drag the country back to 1901. They'll do it in incremental stages, to prevent it from becoming obvious, but they'll do it all the same.
Everything they propose makes me think of something Garry Trudeau said in an introduction to a Calvin and Hobbes collection- "the sheer nakedness of their bad character".
Which is worse, an administration which will lie outright to stage a war for its own political benefit, or an opposition which will exaggerate to point to where the Great Master Plan is leading?
What a bunch of utter @#$%s. If there were anything resembling justice in this world, our Glorious Leaders would be down at the @#$%works, shoveling. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2003 : 13:05:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
I read the bill in its entirety when I first heard about it. While it's not quite as pernicious as it's been made out to be, there are still a few things in it that really can't be characterized as anything but intended to @#$% us hourly workers over.
For all it's language about prohibiting coercing workers into accepting "comp time" in lieu of overtime pay, anybody wanna bet that overtime won't simply dry up for workers who prefer to say "show me the money", in favor of those willing to go along?
Fat chance. It'll be "take the 'comp time' or no overtime at all for you". That might not quite qualify as "coercion" under a legalistic definition, but it doesn't change whose hand the bill puts the whip into.
Also, instead of requiring a written agrrement to take "comp time" instead of overtime pay, the bill accepts a written or "other verifiable agreement".
Let's see, would an email count? How hard is it to fake an email on the company IT system? Or a verbal agreement? Then all it takes to @#$% you out of your overtime is your boss plus one toady to "verify" that you said "yes".
And, in the event of a dispute about whether or not you agreed to "comp time", where is the burden of proof and the standards of proof? Conveniently not specified.
In addition, the boss can make you work a 50-hour week one week, a 30-hour week the next, and not have to cough up anything but your regular wages- not even "comp time"- for that 50-hour week.
This @#$% probably wouldn't injure me too much- California wage and hour laws are already stricter than the Federal equivalents, I happen to work in an odd field which is quite resistant to "outsourcing" and where people who genuinely know what they're doing are hard to find- and the boss knows it. But the workers farther down the ladder are likely to be @#$% upon by this.
V.D., if you really believe that this is anything but a "let's shovel some paybacks to our campaign contributors and take it out of those awful working-class people" measure, I've got this nice bridge available...
The theorists behind the Rethuglicans have been pretty clear that what they want is to drag the country back to 1901. They'll do it in incremental stages, to prevent it from becoming obvious, but they'll do it all the same.
Everything they propose makes me think of something Garry Trudeau said in an introduction to a Calvin and Hobbes collection- "the sheer nakedness of their bad character".
Which is worse, an administration which will lie outright to stage a war for its own political benefit, or an opposition which will exaggerate to point to where the Great Master Plan is leading?
What a bunch of utter @#$%s. If there were anything resembling justice in this world, our Glorious Leaders would be down at the @#$%works, shoveling.
I didn't say it wasn't questionable. What I did say is that it isn't as bad as what is being said about it. Whether the toady goes along or not, the employee can still cash the hours out at any time. This mitigates some provisions of HR1119. Only the Senate bill allows employers to abuse employees work week time. The article linked to repeated the same charges that the AFL-CIO alledged that was unsupported by the text within the bill. Such as the claim that the employer can give you comp time instead of OT and delay payment of it for a year. As HR119 clearly states, the employee can cash out a portion or all of the comp time bank at any time (recieving payment no later than 30 day of the request) and the employer must cash out all comp time remaining Dec 31 to be paid no later than Jan 31.
Does it have the possibility of being abused? Damn skippy. But not as bad as it is painted by the AFL-CIO.
I am much more worried about S317 and it's change to work week rules. In particular the abuses that could happen under the "pooling" of hours.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2003 : 00:01:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
because a third party can't win
Damn it! I'm so tired of hearing you......people say that.
Perhaps IF everyone who doesn't use their vote for a third party because of that, would then there could be a change.
Maybe the idiot polititions would get the message.
Not telling them the way you really think by not voting honestly is IMO wasting your vote.
Now, for the party you should vote for if you want change instead of bickering, fast talking and pandering to people for votes, is.......ta da.....
the Libertarians.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2003 : 11:11:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake: Now, for the party you should vote for if you want change instead of bickering, fast talking and pandering to people for votes, is.......ta da.....
the Libertarians.
While your are ultimately right, that people should vote for whoever will represent their views the best, in practical terms we just aren't there yet.
I hope the Libertarians who don't vote Democratic will enjoy the four more years of Bush they will be getting.
Considering the damage Bush has done and will continue doing, I'd say it's time to bite the bullet and take the course that has the best chance of getting his ass out of there. Screw integrity. You can come back to that after we remove this lunatic. The stakes are too high this time to gamble on a winner. If Bush was a Democrate, I would be voting republican.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 08:48:02 [Permalink]
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| As a Libertarian I still have to agree with Kil on this one. Something has to be done at the next election to remove this mad man and his croonies from office. I will be forced to vote Democrat at the next presidential election, but I will vote libertarian on every other ticket. I would love to stick to my guns and keep my integrity on this issue, but desperate times require desperate mesaures :< |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 18:36:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jmcginn
Something has to be done at the next election to remove this mad man and his croonies from office.
Mad man! That's a bit strong. I don't know if he's crazy, IMO he's just an idiot. LOL, mad men are many times very intelligent.
Ok, he can't speak English and he's against abortion, likes to go to war and talks about god a lot. Abortion is a states rights issue. War, well....that's a large debate with many levels, isn't congress supposed to have something to do with that?!!!
I don't listen to the guy talk so my ears won't be assulted. As for the biggest point, mentioning god, I can put up with that as I have to in daily life with people around me, so the thing that is left is the tax cut....that's a good thing. I don't like Republicians but if they can make the government smaller and stop taxes it's a whole lot better then having Democrats throwing endless amounts of money at problems that never go away. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 18:42:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't like Republicians but if they can make the government smaller and stop taxes it's a whole lot better then having Democrats throwing endless amounts of money at problems that never go away.
It must be very dark under that rock you've been hiding under...
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 07:05:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Mad man! That's a bit strong. I don't know if he's crazy, IMO he's just an idiot. LOL, mad men are many times very intelligent.
From his actions and his words I truly believe Bush doesn't have all of his screws attached, so yes the term "mad man" applies, yes he is a stupid one, bur still one the same.
quote:
I don't like Republicians but if they can make the government smaller and stop taxes it's a whole lot better then having Democrats throwing endless amounts of money at problems that never go away.
Yes Reps cut taxes, but they don't make government smaller. They just shift money from social programs to the military and big business. Our government spending and size has gotten larger under every Rep administration since I can remember (Ford on up) and our national deficit has blossomed under the lasst three Rep presidents.
Yes Dems like to throw boat loads of money at social problems, but at least the last one had the sense to understand that you got to make the money before you spend it and at least they are throwing it at worthy causes somewhat instead of at the military and big business. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 07:06:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by jmcginn
Something has to be done at the next election to remove this mad man and his croonies from office.
Mad man! That's a bit strong. I don't know if he's crazy, IMO he's just an idiot. LOL, mad men are many times very intelligent.
Ok, he can't speak English and he's against abortion, likes to go to war and talks about god a lot. Abortion is a states rights issue. War, well....that's a large debate with many levels, isn't congress supposed to have something to do with that?!!!
I don't listen to the guy talk so my ears won't be assulted. As for the biggest point, mentioning god, I can put up with that as I have to in daily life with people around me, so the thing that is left is the tax cut....that's a good thing. I don't like Republicians but if they can make the government smaller and stop taxes it's a whole lot better then having Democrats throwing endless amounts of money at problems that never go away.
Government smaller? Department of Homeland Security which had to add an entire level of beauracracy is shrinking government?
Stop taxes? How about delaying taxes while sending our indebtedness through the roof and further dampening economic recovery. This is the supply side economics which collapsed under it's own weight during the early 90's that cost Bush 41 his job. Quite a few Republicans are skeptical of this approach.
Instead of spouting the basic Republican = good Democrat = bad partisan crap, why not take a look at the historical track record for the policies being re-tried. They didn't work in the 80's without collapse. It is unlikely that they will work now. $8 trillion USD ($1 e 12 USD) is one heck of a hole to be in. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 18:54:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jmcginn
From his actions and his words I truly believe Bush doesn't have all of his screws attached,
Just wondering what actions you are talking about. That is true that his talk of god could qualify him as mental.
quote:
Yes Reps cut taxes, but they don't make government smaller.
I kind of equate cutting tax with also cutting government jobs and spending. I did say 'IF' they would make it smaller. Which I also thought the Rep. have a better chance of doing that than the Dem.
quote:
Yes Dems like to throw boat loads of money at social problems, but at least the last one had the sense to understand that you got to make the money before you spend it and at least they are throwing it at worthy causes somewhat instead of at the military and big business.
I don't mean this to sound sarcastic to you because I think you are really trying to discuss this but what worthy causes? |
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