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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2003 : 18:16:35
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I'm sure there are better sources for this information than NPR but I just happened to be listening to "All Things Considered" and, well, they considered this.
quote:
June 11, 2003 -- After six years of analysis, fossil hunters in Africa have confirmed the discovery of the oldest fossilized remains of modern humans yet found -- portions of skulls belonging to people who lived 160,000 years ago. Paleontologists say the discovery adds detail to a crucial period in human evolution, and confirms the hypothesis that modern humans evolved in Africa.
The rest of this report can be found at the NPR web site:
http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1295624.html
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/12/2003 : 06:46:16 [Permalink]
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I ran across it in a couple of places on line. It's very interesting.
It's been posted at Theology Web (not by me) and a couple of other fundie love-ins, but it hasn't drawn much action thus far. AiG might be fun to keep an eye on. I doubt if Ham, Sarfati, et al, will let it go without comment: "...but it represents microevolution!" which, actually, it does, and then there'll be the usual whine & snivvle session about radiometric dating, coal deposits, and Mt. St. Helen.
But, mayhaps this time they'll come up with something original and amusing.
Edited: Spelling again, alas.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/12/2003 06:50:11 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2003 : 19:02:33 [Permalink]
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This is interesting too...
A BBC News report dated 9 June 2003 and entitled
"When humans faced extinction" may be found at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2975862.stm
quote:
Based on lack of DNA diversity researchers
suggest that the number of humans was very
small at some time during the last 100,000
years -- perhaps a low as 2,000 individuals.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2003 : 19:19:34 [Permalink]
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Yup. Here it 'tis. Didn't take them long, did it?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2003/0612sapiens.asp
The main thrust of the article seems to be something of a cheap shot at hugh Ross, as well as the usual blather about dating.
Drs Sarfati and Wieland wrote it. I'm glad to see they're awake.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2003 : 19:24:53 [Permalink]
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There was a brief discussion on the BBC article at Infidels. It is certainly interesting, but I'm not sure what to make of it.
Evolutionary bottleneck? Or does more research need to be done?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 12:42:56 [Permalink]
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NPR just had an interview on Talk of the Nation with Tim White one of the leading (if not the leading) physical anthropologists on the team that discovered the 3 skulls.
http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1295624.html
Some interesting points include:
1. Found with a bounty of stone tools (not much analysis was presented).
2. Fossils of butchered hippos and buffalo were found in the same strata.
3. The skulls show signs of handling (very polished) and also had cut marks on them indicating they were defleshed for some purpose (e.g. as war trophies or as ancestor icons for worship). The child one had its forman magnum (the hole at the base of the skull that the spinal cord enters) enlarged.
He also hinted at Little Foot, the specimen I have been waiting on now with much excitement for what seems likes decades (although its only been 5 years or so). Maybe they will finally publish some good stuff on this amazing find. A partial skeleton of an Australopithecine older and more complete than Lucy. Damn brecca. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 13:05:10 [Permalink]
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Wow, for an AiG article I have to say I am kind of impressed, other than radiometric dating and this line:
quote:
(This includes the Neandertals, despite strong evidence from fossils of hybrids showing that Neandertals interbred with anatomically modern Homo sapiens.4)
(the evidence is anything but strong and is still quite hotly debated in the literature today) the article actually contains very little in the way of falsehoods. An amazing acheivement for them. Of course they are attacking a fellow creationist so that goes to figure LOL. Oh yeah and their flood claim too LOL. How did these things become buried under sediment and fossilized if they are post flood as they claim and only ~3,000 - 4,000 years old? LOL
A couple of lines worth reprinting just for their humor effect:
quote:
But this means they [Hugh Ross and crew] are forced into some very tortuous positions regarding ‘fossil men.'
LOL, AiG lives in a permenant state of being in a tortuous position trying to explain away all of science with a book of myths. Hugh Ross and crew just shifted position a little so it was at least bearable.
quote:
So it is even less plausible for Ross and his followers to deny that they are descendants of Adam.
They want to talk "plausible" LOL.
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Thus their [Hugh and crew again] denial of the humanness of these recent discoveries would be ‘special pleading' of the worst kind
Oh irony, sweet bitter irony. AiG is wonderful example of special pleading to the highest degree, all to justify their magic book of myths.
quote:
(One would certainly hope that they would not try to tell us that now Adam's creation, and hence the Genesis genealogies, should be stretched by another 100,000 years to 160,000 years ago!)
One would hope that they would not try to tell us that all of science is wrong, the Earth and Universe are only ~6k years old, and there was a big old flood that sorted all of those fossils in perfect evolutionary order.
Ah creationists, science would be safer without them, but life sure would be a little more boring. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 13:11:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Evolutionary bottleneck? Or does more research need to be done?
The evidence for a recent bottleneck of some kind is pretty strong. The fact that we are so genetically similar across all contienents speaks volumes for a recent emergence from a single lineage (~100 kya based on the differences that we do have). |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2003 : 12:42:07 [Permalink]
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From "Ethiopian ?earliest humans? find" by Wieland and Sarfarti.
quote:
So in a biblical framework of history, this Ethiopian find is just one more example of fossil human bones, probably post-Babel and thus post-Flood, and thus nothing to get excited about.
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these Ethiopian ?sapiens? skulls are obviously and distinctively part of the human family, descended from Adam.
Whew !! Thank god. I was becoming concerned that I would have to start thinking again. And on a Wednesday no less. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2003 : 17:57:11 [Permalink]
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| I was under the impression the human race was thought to be around 3 million years old. Thats the figure I always hear. Where do they get that from? |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 07:15:46 [Permalink]
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Vegeta, I guess you will have to define by what you mean as the "human race". In this case we are talking about the species Homo sapiens and probably even more particulary Homo sapiens sapiens.
Species designated in the genus Homo go back to around 2.6 mya called Homo habilis. This creature was bipedal, a stone tool user, fairly small in stature with a brain about half the size of ours.
If you want to talk about hominids we have fossils going back over 5 mya including species that would be best described as upright apes with other features pointing towards later human features such as smaller canines, less prognathism (jutting out of the face), etc. A few new still controversial species may push this back to 6-7 mya.
For a great overview Jim Foley's site can't be beat.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
For a detail on hominid species then go to his species page:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html (Click on the Fossils link by each species to see pics).
Edited for bad grammar/spelling
Edited to add the following:
Under Foley's species page you will note the species Homo sapiens sapiens (modern) (this is us). You will note that he still has the date 120 kya, which was the date accepted before this latest find and probably will be until the information becomes more widely accepted and the full research is published.
Hey he added a cool time line too at the bottom :> enjoy |
| Edited by - jmcginn on 06/26/2003 07:19:52 |
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