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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
 Posted - 06/25/2003 : 18:00:44
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Have we observed it happening in nature? There's plenty of examples of micro-evolution, but without evidence of speciation the theory still has holes. Or so I understand it.
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What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2003 : 19:34:15 [Permalink]
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| thanks |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2003 : 19:56:13 [Permalink]
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Hi Vegeta,
Here's another you might find useful:
http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_05.htm
Macro-evolution, by it's very nature is difficult to observe. The times for it to work are simply too huge. Of course, it really all depends upon your definition of 'macro' (which seems to vary a bit, depending on who you're talking to). So, we must look to the fossil record for the evidence of it. That evidence abounds. I will be happy to post some more, very interesting links, if you wish.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 06:22:15 [Permalink]
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| I like to see examples of it happening around us because they can't be messed with. It sidesteps the whole "Where's the missing link" argument. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 07:29:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
I like to see examples of it happening around us because they can't be messed with. It sidesteps the whole "Where's the missing link" argument.
Ok. This is ancedotal, therefore worth little as evidence, but when my brother was in college, he set up a wingless fruit fly experiment. He bred them for different color eyes, and so forth. He also bred them in isolated populations. I've forgotten how many generations passed, but untimatly none of the populations could interbreed with another. Interesting, no? A small bit of macro-evolution, perhaps? I dunno. You decide.
There is no such thing as a 'missing link'. There are only discoveries not yet made. The Cuffy link describes intermediate, reptile to mammal evolution in a species. You might look at the links I posted for Creation88. The ones concerning Ithyostega and Agcanthrostega are particularly interesting.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 07:36:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
I like to see examples of it happening around us because they can't be messed with. It sidesteps the whole "Where's the missing link" argument.
Like Filthy said, it's a very slow process. It takes tens of thousands of years for micro-evolution to turn into macro-evolution.
By tampering with the procreation of a species we can accelerate the evolutionary process by artificially select an offspring. We can take this artificial selection as an emulation of harsh wildlife selection.
Keeping this in mind, think of the breeding of dogs. Dog is a specimen of canis. From a DNA standpoint, all dogs have some kind of common ancestor, but selective breeding has created different races of dog. You may breed a Labrador with an Alsatian, but not necessarily a dwarf-schnauzer or a pekinese with a New Foundland or a Great Dane.
(apologies if I didn't get the name of the races right, I'm not an english native speaker)
The inhibiting factor is in this case not DNA, but the physical size of the dog. You just can not have a pekinese carrying full term if it's going to be half-New Foundland. On the other hand, I'm having trouble imagining how a small Pekinese might impregnate a New Foundland without artificial help  .
This is the beginning of a speciation. Now, the Pekinese and the New Foundland may continue on it's separate evolutionary journeys, and eventually there will be enough mutations in the genome to prevent the sexual part of the reproduction, not just the physical and/or psychological barrier.
The minor differences in DNA between Homo Sapiens and Dwarf Chimpanzee suggests a common ancestor. While the physical similarities between the species is enough to enable interbreeding, I fear psychological barriers are not firm enough to prevent such attempts. However, I have never heard about any "research" in this area, scientific or otherwise.
Have any of you heard of any attempts of combining human and other-species DNA in the context of sexual reproduction? The reason I ask this is that if we ever get a "positive" result of such research I believe the majority of the creationists may become prone to self-termination... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 09:47:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
There is no such thing as a 'missing link'.
Agree. Evolution is not a simple step-by-step progression along a preferred pathway. It's not A to B to C. It's A to A1, A2, A3... and A1 becomes A1a, A1b...then A1b remixes with A1...etc. etc. creating a tangled web of "pathways" (a bush of zig-zagging variation, not a simple branching tree or a one-lane highway). There is no single "missing link". |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 20:00:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Phobos
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
There is no such thing as a 'missing link'.
Agree. Evolution is not a simple step-by-step progression along a preferred pathway. It's not A to B to C. It's A to A1, A2, A3... and A1 becomes A1a, A1b...then A1b remixes with A1...etc. etc. creating a tangled web of "pathways" (a bush of zig-zagging variation, not a simple branching tree or a one-lane highway). There is no single "missing link".
Isn't it also the case that simply classifying an organism is really an artificial thing? That is, on some level, each generation if slightly different from the last.
As an analogy, I like to think of language shift, since that is easier to study and the data are much greater. Can anyone-- creationist or not-- show the 'missing link' between say, Old English and Middle English? Did people just wake up some day and start conjugating verbs differently and opting for different vocabulary? Or is it really the case that the differences between, again, Old and Middle English are only distinct when viewed say 300 years apart. But if one were to look at a document from, say, 1100, would it be Old English, or Middle English? Or perhaps a 'missing link'? The reality is that the classification Old or Middle is artificial, for use by scholars and the like. My guess is that in talking evolution the same thing is happening, but with much larger gaps between attested data.
Maybe. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 23:12:07 [Permalink]
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| Cuneiformist, you are exactly right; however, creationists (the only ones who complain about a "missing link") refuse to accept that reasoning. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 06:18:21 [Permalink]
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| Cuneiformist, we are all "transitional forms" between our parents and our kids. Most of us won't fossilize, though. Or do we fossilize better given funerary preparations and purposeful burial? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 12:24:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
Cuneiformist, you are exactly right; however, creationists (the only ones who complain about a "missing link") refuse to accept that reasoning.
exactly |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 14:00:56 [Permalink]
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Vegeta the Honolulu Zoo is a good place to look. When the zoo first opened around the time of WW I they imported a small herd of kangaroos from Australia. It was a successful breeding population and there was never a need to import any more. Never that is until the 1990's when the zoo underwent a major restructuring from a wide variety of animals to specifically ones from the Pacific. The kangaroo exhibit was greatly enlarged and new specimens were imported to fill it. These new specimens were taken from exactly the same group in Australia that the earlier ones had been taken from.
But the new Kangaroos cannot breed with the Honolulu Kangaroos because in less than a hundred years the Honolulu Roos; living in isolation; have evolved into a new species.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 14:36:12 [Permalink]
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It sidesteps the whole "Where's the missing link" argument.
If you want to know where the so-called "missing links" are you have to look at teen-agers. You would categorize teen-agers as people between the ages of 13 and 19. Adults would be 20 and older. But where is the missing link between the two? How can there be such differences as there are between a teen (see 15 year old specimen) and an adult (see 55 year old sample.)
Obviously the answer is there are no missing links. The terms teen and adult already contain within them vast degrees of minute differences. It takes an expert to tell the difference between a 19-year-old and a 20-year-old…it's really a judgement call. But it marks an arbitrary distinction that exists only to make categorizing simpler. A 19-year-old might be categorized as a teen but the difference between her and a 20-year-old is no greater than that between a 20-year-old and a 21-year-old even though they are both categorized as adults. The difference between a 13 year-old and a 19 is very large but, for ease of fileing, they are both still teens
It works the same way with categories early humans. The missing links aren't missing at all they are incorporated within the categories themselves.
Oh, Dr Mabuse, I work with primates. Dwarf Chimps are chimps who suffer from dwarfism. I believe you are referring to Pygmy Chimps, who are our closest relation. They are no longer called Pygmy Chimps but are now known as Bonobos. I've talked with people who work with them about interbreeding with humans--there was a Bonobo (Oliver the Chimp) who was exhibited as half man half chimp (humanzee the posters said) because he walked up right due to his very long-almost human- legs. It was a hoax of course; he was just a very strange looking chimp.
Anyway they see no reason that humans and bonobos couldn't interbreed. If there were offspring they would undoubtedly be "mules." This is speculation of course. No one is seeking funding for an experiment (imagine the grad student that signed up to participate in that!!!)
On the other hand Dr Michael Skinner thought I was an idiot to even ask the question and emphatically says NO
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
| Edited by - Slater on 07/02/2003 14:55:29 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 16:58:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
imagine the grad student that signed up to participate in that!!!
All in the name of science, my friend!  |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 14:51:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Oh, Dr Mabuse, I work with primates. Dwarf Chimps are chimps who suffer from dwarfism. I believe you are referring to Pygmy Chimps, who are our closest relation.
Those are the ones... In Sweden they are called "dwarf" so I just translated it. quote:
They are no longer called Pygmy Chimps but are now known as Bonobos.
I didn't know... Thanks for educating me. Where should I place the emphasis when pronouncing it? quote:
I've talked with people who work with them about interbreeding with humans--there was a Bonobo (Oliver the Chimp) who was exhibited as half man half chimp (humanzee the posters said) because he walked up right due to his very long-almost human- legs. It was a hoax of course; he was just a very strange looking chimp.
Anyway they see no reason that humans and bonobos couldn't interbreed. If there were offspring they would undoubtedly be "mules." This is speculation of course. No one is seeking funding for an experiment (imagine the grad student that signed up to participate in that!!!)
On the other hand Dr Michael Skinner thought I was an idiot to even ask the question and emphatically says NO
Now we know why christians are so adamant about bestiality-sex... We might find proof of evolution there.
I certianly would NEVER get caught in an act of procreation with another species than homo sapien sapien.
Still, it would be very interesting to do a DNA-match between Bonobos and Homo Sapiens to see how long ago we have our common ancestor. The mutation-rate of DNA is linear, so geneticists have become very accurate in dating old DNA. We now have another dating method beside radiology, though it works only on certain DNA.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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