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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2003 : 14:59:31 [Permalink]
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| Thats true for most christians, but theres plenty of agnostics out there who don't believe in evolution for whatever reason, and if I can give them any facts on the matter then I will, of course I have to get them from somewhere first. like this place |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2003 : 05:55:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thats true for most christians, but theres plenty of agnostics out there who don't believe in evolution for whatever reason, and if I can give them any facts on the matter then I will, of course I have to get them from somewhere first. like this place
I would venture that the number of agnostics or atheists that don't accept the fact of evolution would be a VERY low number, about the same percentage that believe the earth is flat or believe that we did not land on the moon. The majority of christians actually accept evolution. The only group that has a problem with evolution appears to be fundamental christians (or other radical fundamentalist like some moslems). You may have read some christian propaganda that talks about scientists that dispute evolution, these are almost to a man born-again scientists that represtent a TINY minority of the scientific community. Many scientist may dispute some aspect of the mechanisium of evolution but that does not mean they think that the Earth was formed 10,000 years ago in 1 week. The ONLY people that believe in the 7 day creation are the fundamental christians.
By the way, if someone believes that the universe was created in 7 days by an all poweful God - there is no way in the world I can disprove that or would I try. If God is all powerful, he can create the universe to look ancient. I cannot prove that he did not do that. My objection is when people use pseudo-science to prove that creation occurred. Invariably, all scientific facts about the age of the universe are ignored, and madeup pseudo-science along with hair-brained theories are employed to prove the creation scenario. If your faith tells you that the universe was created by God in 7 days - have at it, with my blessing. If you try to teach pseudo-science to someone to 'prove' creation I get very annoyed.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2003 : 14:46:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
The majority of christians actually accept evolution.
I realize that many Christians do, but I'm not so sure its a majority when I see Gallop polls that say something like 45% of Americans think that "God created human beings at one time within the last 10,000 years pretty much in their present form". |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2003 : 01:11:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I realize that many Christians do, but I'm not so sure its a majority when I see Gallop polls that say something like 45% of Americans think that "God created human beings at one time within the last 10,000 years pretty much in their present form".
There are a few Christians outside the US as well
(edited to fix quote code) |
| Edited by - Starman on 08/13/2003 00:00:30 |
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2003 : 13:24:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
There are a few Christians outside the US as well
Certainly! 
Anyone have such statistics for other countries? |
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Truth
New Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2003 : 23:14:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
The majority of christians actually accept evolution.
Why do you speak about things that you have no idea about? Where did you pull that from? Are you a Christian? Do you talk to the majority of Christians in America or anywhere else? A true "Christian" is someone that has accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour and accepts His teachings about CREATION. You said that evolution is not a belief but you are defending it like it needed to be defended. You not only believe it, you cling to it. And don't speak for Christians anymore. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2003 : 04:07:45 [Permalink]
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Oh, Truth, Truth, truth! There you go again, Buddy. It seems to be your truth or no truth--The truth according to Truth.
http://www.cesame-nm.org/Viewpoint/contributions/bible/position.html
Just read the link, and stop trying to tell us that you know 'the truth and the way.' We have enough people in this world with messiah complexes.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2003 : 09:41:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Truth
quote:
Originally posted by furshur
The majority of christians actually accept evolution.
Why do you speak about things that you have no idea about? Where did you pull that from? Are you a Christian? Do you talk to the majority of Christians in America or anywhere else? A true "Christian" is someone that has accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour and accepts His teachings about CREATION. You said that evolution is not a belief but you are defending it like it needed to be defended. You not only believe it, you cling to it. And don't speak for Christians anymore.
Oh dear. 'True Christians' again.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/ 
Ok, please enlighten me. Explain exactly how the writings, revised and edited over some 20-plus centuries for mainly political purposes, negate the studies of highly educated people who have dedicated their lives to the study of the Theory of Evolution.
Do you really think I worship the ToE? What nonsense!
Hey look, if you can debunk the ToE, I'll simply drop it with never a look back, nor with the slightest regret. But, you must come up with an alternet theory that has a great deal of supporting, empirical evidence. Statments like, "God done it," is not evidence, and therefore, not acceptable. Evidence is, oh, lesse, perhaps an alternate and viable explanation for the fossil record. Yeah! Find me the Devonian Bunny, the holy grail, sort of, of paloentologists. Umm, perhaps also, irrefrutable, geologic evidence for a global flood and the seaworthiness of an heavly-loaded ship built to the Bible's specs. Yeah, that might cut it, if you can present it.
Luck,
 , (He of little faith). |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2003 : 12:22:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Truth
quote:
Originally posted by furshur
The majority of christians actually accept evolution.
A true "Christian" is someone that has accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour and accepts His teachings about CREATION.
Where does Jesus teach about creation? Please provide proof (quotes), otherwise we will dismiss your claim.
Quotes will make us accept that the Bible say Jesus actually gave lectures on creation, this is your first step in trying to convince us of anything. If you can not provide evidence for your (I believe rash) statement, we will dismiss you as someone just shooting off your mouth, and you will loose all credibility.
I can not guarantee, however, that I will accept the Bible as anything other than fiction.
quote:
You said that evolution is not a belief but you are defending it like it needed to be defended.
Evolution is science. Science is Evolution. It is the very life and essence of science that theories should be questioned and defended. It makes good theories stronger and bad theories weaker. It's the survival of the fittest theory.
* Some times theories are proven wrong and are rejected. Example: The Greek Geocentric cosmogony (~200 BC), With Ptolemy's calculations (~200 AD) of epicycles and deferents placed the Earth in the center of the universe. The theory was replaced by Copernicus' (~1500 AD) heliocentric model.
* Some times theories are accepted as correct even if no one can explain why! Example: Johannes Kepler (~1600 AD) described planetary orbits as ellipses. He made a very accurate formula for planets' (differing) movement rates along their elliptical orbits. He made accurate correlations between orbital periods and orbital radius. But he could not explain why his formulas were accurate.
* Some times theories developed in a seemingly different field affect current theories. Example: Isaac Newton's (~1700 AD) three laws of motion, inertia, acceleration, action-reaction, and forces revolutionized modern physics, but his formula of gravitation finally explained why Kepler's laws worked.
* Often, new evidence proves theories to be lacking, other theories needs to be superimposed to explain phenomena (partially different field). Example: The precession of the orbit of Mercury was discovered to deviate from the predictions made by Newtonian mechanics. Some frustrated astronomers searched for a missing planet that could account for the deviations. Finally, someone suggested that Einstein's theory of relativity should be taken in to account (~1920 AD), since the Sun's gravitation and the orbital speed of Mercury must be warping the space-time, Mercury was close enough to be affected noticably.
This became good evidence for both Einstein's theory of relativity, and reinforced the validity of Newtonian mechanics in situations that does not include extreme circumstances of speed or mass.
There is no such thing as absolute truth except in pure mathematics.
quote:
And don't speak for Christians anymore.
Why not? Tim has proved you wrong, so obviously you are not qualified to speak on Christians' behalf. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/24/2003 12:27:57 |
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Truth
New Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2003 : 21:01:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Where does Jesus teach about creation? Please provide proof (quotes), otherwise we will dismiss your claim.
Who said lectures?
Matthew 19:4
Jesus is talking to the pharisees who should have been well versed in the Old Testament...
(4)And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning, made them male and female?"
Jesus validates Genesis by referring to it. His teachings of creation referred to what was written in Genesis.
As I said in the other thread, I feel we got off on the wrong foot. I apologize for my tone. However, I do NOT recant on my beliefs.
Dr. Mabuse- thank you for answering my posting and I look forward to further discussions.
quote:
Example: Isaac Newton's (~1700 AD) three laws of motion, inertia, acceleration, action-reaction, and forces revolutionized modern physics, but his formula of gravitation finally explained why Kepler's laws worked.
Isaac Newton believed in God and stated that with such intricate design the universe had to have a creator. You believe his laws of motion and gravity but do you reject his belief in God? Food for thought.
furshur- sending mock Christian web-sites only proves your lack of knowledge.
Tim- I know you are fuming at me but I want you to take a breath. This web-site you recommended lists doctrine for about 10 different churches or (denominations) with 10 different beliefs and some of them don't even believe in the same God as I do. The fact that the catholic church and other denominations have turned God into a political tool, doesn't mean that all Christians believe this way. I know and admit that some churches are out for money and power. There are churches that take entire parts of the bible and leave it out in order to practice how they want. This doesn't change God or the way I believe. I am going to save you the trouble of trying to prove God and Christianity wrong. Not all people who claim to be of God, are. The stance of several different churches proves nothing. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2003 : 00:23:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Truth
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Where does Jesus teach about creation? Please provide proof (quotes), otherwise we will dismiss your claim.
Who said lectures?
Matthew 19:4
Jesus is talking to the pharisees who should have been well versed in the Old Testament...
(4)And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning, made them male and female?"
Jesus validates Genesis by referring to it.
Ok. I personally think that is a stretch, but then, it makes no differnece to me, because I consider the bible fiction.
quote:
Dr. Mabuse- thank you for answering my posting and I look forward to further discussions.
quote:
Example: Isaac Newton's (~1700 AD) three laws of motion, inertia, acceleration, action-reaction, and forces revolutionized modern physics, but his formula of gravitation finally explained why Kepler's laws worked.
Isaac Newton believed in God and stated that with such intricate design the universe had to have a creator. You believe his laws of motion and gravity but do you reject his belief in God? Food for thought.
Iscaac Newton provided evidence for his theories, not for the existence of God.
Isaac Newtons theories and laws are descriptions of reality as we know it. They have nothing to do with his belief in God. He may have said "with such intricate design the universe had to have a creator" but we do not know the motivations behind this statement.
His theories does not include God, because the invention of God would be redundant in his theories.
You believe in God, just like Martin Luther, but you reject his teachings that Jews should have their homes burnt. That's also food for though.
quote:
Tim- .... some of them don't even believe in the same God as I do.
Which ones are that? To my knowledge, all of those churches believed in the God that is described in the Old Testament. all of those churches believe that Jesus of the New Testament is the one-and-only resurrected son of God, whom everyone has to acknowledge in order to have eternal life. The specifics of the practice may differ, but all churches preaches the same thing:
Rome 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." it doesn't get more straight forward than that.
quote:
The fact that the catholic church and other denominations have turned God into a political tool, doesn't mean that all Christians believe this way. I know and admit that some churches are out for money and power.
But the question is, does that makes the members of those churches less christian? They still do as required by Rome 10:9, and most of the other verses in the bible that regulates what it is to be christian. By saying "they don't even believe in the same God" you are judging them. Are you qualified to do that?
quote:
The stance of several different churches proves nothing.
Oh, but it does. Every member of those churches will say that they are christians. Hence, their voice should be counted. And by that count, "Young Earth Creationists" are in minority. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2003 : 02:30:00 [Permalink]
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Posted by Dr. Mabuse quote:
To my knowledge, all of those churches believed in the God that is described in the Old Testament. all of those churches believe that Jesus of the New Testament is the one-and-only resurrected son of God, whom everyone has to acknowledge in order to have eternal life.
Doc, in Truth's defense, not all of those churches listed could be considered Christian. The UU's have the choice to believe in Christian theology, or not. Not all UU's are Christians.
Unfortunately, this really does not help Truth's case. The actual size of the non-Christian UU set is so small as to make it inconsequential in respect to the results.
Also, this web page is devoted to the belief in an inerrant Bible--Not the actual amount of Christians that subscribe to the Theory of Evolution.
On the other hand, I really don't think that any other model has an awful lot of proponents in the Western world.
All in all, try as I might I haven't given Truth much of a defense.
Posted by truth quote:
Tim- I know you are fuming at me
Now, Truth. I am not fuming at you. However, as Doc has already alluded, your belief, or opinion that these people aren't real Christians does not make it so. These people describe themselves as Christians, and we cannot speculate fairly as to what they truly believe. The fact that they worship differently than you means little to their beliefs and self-identification. It merely reflects your differences of opinion.
To be quite honest, Truth, your particular modern fundamentalist method of worship is quite different from any Christian sects of the past 2,000 years. I do not think that this makes all those of the past non-Christians.
quote:
The fact that the catholic church and other denominations have turned God into a political tool
As have most Protestant sects, especially the modern Fundamentalists, Charismatics and the Pentacostals. Historically, few Religious groups have endured for very long without seeking out political power. This seems to be human nature...Power prevails--Truth be damned!
quote:
I am going to save you the trouble of trying to prove God and Christianity wrong.
No need, my friend. I have no interest in proving or disproving the existence of God, or the claim of truth regarding the divinity of a man that may or may not have existed thousands of years ago. That is your job. You make the claim.
quote:
The stance of several different churches proves nothing.
Very good, my friend...You are making progress. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2003 : 14:50:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Posted by Dr. Mabuse quote:
To my knowledge, all of those churches believed in the God that is described in the Old Testament. all of those churches believe that Jesus of the New Testament is the one-and-only resurrected son of God, whom everyone has to acknowledge in order to have eternal life.
Doc, in Truth's defense, not all of those churches listed could be considered Christian. The UU's have the choice to believe in Christian theology, or not. Not all UU's are Christians.
I stand corrected. I have actually never heard of such synthesis before. The churches in Sweden are quite straight forward in this respect. Or perhaps I'm just mis-informed? I haven't cared much about any congregation the last eight to ten years. Except when I get the chance to punch the nose of those who sticks it too far where is does not belong... 
And the occasional annoyance when the Finnish versions of the Watchtower drops down in my mail box, every now and then. I couldn't care less though, because even though I have a Finnish last name, I don't speak it. I don't understand why they bother, because the last time I spoke to them I told them in no uncertain terms that I wanted nothing to do with them.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2003 : 17:12:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Truth
You said that evolution is not a belief but you are defending it like it needed to be defended. You not only believe it, you cling to it.
"Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, 'Yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down, down. Amen!' If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it."
Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith: From preacher to Atheist
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"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2003 : 17:27:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Truth
Not all people who claim to be of God, are.
Really? So how are we of no faith supposed to tell which ones are of God and which ones are not of God? I submit that no one who claims to be of god, is. Because from the skeptic point of view, we cannot use reason to distinguish the "truly Godly" from the "falsely Godly".
This is like saying that not all people who claim to be psychic, are. And I submit that no one who claims to be psychic, is. This is because we skeptics have no way of distinguishing between the two, since they are identical in all respects. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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