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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2003 : 10:41:40 [Permalink]
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I read a bit of the website and noted this.
quote:
From the article: "Did You Make a PsiBall? : A Guide to PsiBall Identification for Newbies"
You may try making it around a thermometre device and having it fluctuate in temperature, or a magnet and have it fluctuate magnetically.
That is an emminently testable claim, especially the temperature fluctuation part. It should be a simple matter to publish a reproducible experiment.
- TW
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2003 : 11:01:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Stony wrote:quote:
The United States government and even the former USSR looked heavily into psionics, espesially during the cold war. If you have any doubts you may write the CIA under the Freedom of Information Act. It'll probably cost you about $20 US, but within one month they will send you information on Telepaty, Remove Viewing, Psychokenisis, and "STARGATE".
Oh, I don't think many people would doubt that the government has looked into psionics since, after all, it's a matter of public record. Frankly, the government looks into a lot of things which I feel are a waste of time and effort. The fact that they are no longer looking into psionics - in any public way - should also tell us all something. Either
A) they're doing research on the sly, using discretionary funding not discussed in Congressional subcommittees, or
B) the previous research was found lacking.
It's clear to me that lots of super-secret stuff is researched by government agencies without requiring approval from Congress. However, something this big would be leaked, as has happened so many times before. People won't get excited enough about, for example, the next generation of shotgun microphone or teeny-tiny camera to risk their jobs or their freedom to blab to a reporter. But real psychic abilities would get someone worked up enough to deliver evidence to CNN, regardless of the consequences.
Thus, I find possibility B much more believable.
When I found that the open research had stopped in 1971, I concluded that they had found something --- both at Duke and Moscow State --- and that the CIA & KGB co-opted the whole area of study. Even CNN wouldn't fool with an intelligence agency on a matter of Nat'l Security. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2003 : 11:55:39 [Permalink]
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Thank you Stony for your post. It is refreshing to see someone from the other side (pun!) participating in a forum such as ours, which may sometimes look like a long list of replies from "me too" people... But I suspect that your own forums aren't very different in that regard...
I'd like to ask you a few questions and comments regarding your post. I guess you've already sensed (again, pun!) that i'm a skeptic. Here goes;
quote:
Originally posted by stony
Things change folks, and weather you like it or not, psionics is slowly being considered a science.
By whom? Can you refer us to a few websites/documents supporting that claim? I'd really like to read those, and i'm sure a lot of my fellow skeptics would too... Specificaly, I'd really like to know how the scientific method is (or could be) applied in this case.
quote:
There are people who do not believe in god, yet, do we criticize them as heavily as we do people whom believe in or dabble in psionics? No. Why? I don't know, perhaps it's the skeptic's own fear, or maybe people lack the knowlage to accept such a thing.
I'm a sketic, and beleive me when I say I'm being critized all the time. "You dont beleive in anything", "you're closed minded", etc, I've heard it all. I usually reply that the only thing I close my mind to is blind faith, and that ALL i'm asking for is ONE simple proof about ANY esoteric powers (guess how many "proofs" i've had so far?) In short, we feel your pain! Lack of knowledge you say? Instruct us!
quote:
...for the sake of this rant, let's say one of your close friends is a psychic. Now, would you make fun and otherwise harrass them the same way you do another psychic? I'd bet that you wouldn't.
If one of my friend was able to bend a spoon with only the power of his mind, I'd be a skeptic no more. BTW, I don't harrass my "psychic" friends, well, no more than they harrass me :)
quote:
I'm quite aware of James Randi and his fake "psychic" acts. That's old news and everyone knows it. I also know of his one million dollar prize. Anyone who is offering one million dollars to prove something he can do himself obviously cannot do it himself!
James "The Amazing" Randi is not a fake psychic, he is a magician. Yes, it's all trickery and lies; it's a magic act, entertainment. He's not making any claims of supernatural powers, just ask him at randi@randi.org.
A question; since psionics is apparently becoming a "real" science, how come no one from the psionic community has ever tried to claim the prize? I mean, if was able to bend spoons with my mind, I would try to get that prize... Easy money, dont you think?
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Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2003 : 13:41:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by stony
Hello,
Hello yourself.
quote:
I'm am a long time user and high standing member of PsiPog.net. Now, before you begin to issue ban commands and start a flame war, please listen to me for just a moment.
While I can not presume to speak for the moderators, I have yet to see them resort to any moderating measures. So you have to really misbehave in order to get banned.
quote:
I realize I am preaching to many a sceptic on this board, but I am tired of seeing this site slandered. You may call any talk of psychic abilites nothing but utter bullshit and "not real science".
There is a reason for that... We don't believe something just because someone say it is so. We demand evidence.
quote:
You may say, "It's not possible! There is just no way you can do such a thing!"
I can't speak for anyone else in this matter. I say that nothing is impossible, but to convince me you are going to need pretty damn good evidence.
quote:
This is the exact same thing stated when the though of space travel came about in the 1950's, but we went there didn't we?
Sorry, but I disagree. I don't think it's the same thing.
quote:
If you have any doubts you may write the CIA under the Freedom of Information Act. It'll probably cost you about $20 US, but within one month they will send you information on Telepaty, Remove Viewing, Psychokenisis, and "STARGATE".
The only place I have ever heard of these things actually working is in sci-fi TV, movies, and literature.
Stargate SG-1 is one of my current favourites, on Sci-fi channel.
quote:
There are people who do not believe in god, yet, do we criticize them as heavily as we do people whom believe in or dabble in psionics? No.
Oh, HELL YES we do. You need to look more into our web-site. You'll see that our skepticism is not confined to claims of psychic abilities. Religion get's its fair share.
quote:
Why? I don't know, perhaps it's the skeptic's own fear, or maybe people lack the knowlage to accept such a thing.
Fear has nothing to do with it. If psionics actually work, then we lack knowledge. BUT... Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. And 'psionics' rates just as high as 'alien encounter' on my extraordinary-claim-meter.
quote:
Acceptance is also an issue here. Weather you like it, or know it, psychics are here, they are around you. Some of your friends may be them, and yet, maybe they aren't.
Then bring me means to identify them, and I might reconsider my position that it's bogus.quote:
For the sake of this rant, let's say one of your close friends is a psychic. Now, would you make fun and otherwise harrass them the same way you do another psychic?
Let's say that one of YOUR neighbours were Homo Sapien. What would your honest reaction be?
quote:
We are normal people. We lead fairly normal lives, work in normal places, and go to the same normal schools you do. Hell, I hang out with total sceptics!
Good for you!
quote:
Thank you for listing to me for a moment.
Stony
Any time. You are welcome.
In fact, now that you're here, please drop by every now and then. If you have good evidence of psychic activities, please post them here because we'd love to examine them.
If we find them to hold their ground, you'll get many new followers.
regards, dr. Mabuse
PS. I saw the "Homo Sapien question" on one of Jay Leno's Jay-walk. There was hilarious reactions from people who pretended to understand what it meant. Not enough people understood the question. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2003 : 14:18:43 [Permalink]
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ComputerOrg wrote:quote:
Even CNN wouldn't fool with an intelligence agency on a matter of Nat'l Security.
Yeah, that's why an agent's identity just got leaked recently, right?
Seriously, there are way too many people with clearances around who also believe that with big news, "the people have a right to know." Solid evidence of government-funded psychics spying on people would be precisely that kind of news. In the last thirty-two years, somebody would have squealed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 07:25:29 [Permalink]
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You are dead wrong on this one, Dave W. This is a problem of "us" v. "them": While the leakers are "us" --- typically Hqs-types: chairborne pencil-pushers --- the field-agents are "them". There would be very few, if any, non-telepaths with knowledge of telepathic operations.
While "telepaths" might think of themselves as the next stage in human evolution, the rest of us would see them as dire threats to our very existence and the existence of our children. That "telepaths" might be an evolutionary step forward would be irrelevant; we, having seen the dire threat, would work rapidly and quickly to either control or exterminate them: There would be no leakers amoungst the "telepaths" and, thus, only a miniscule chance of leakage of any such telepathic program in the World's intelligence communities.
My view, anyway. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 19:10:04 [Permalink]
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| Damn muties! They're evil! all of 'em! |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 20:19:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Computer Org:
While "telepaths" might think of themselves as the next stage in human evolution, the rest of us would see them as dire threats to our very existence and the existence of our children.
Someone has been watching too many Babylon 5 reruns.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 21:33:29 [Permalink]
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ComputerOrg wrote:quote:
While "telepaths" might think of themselves as the next stage in human evolution, the rest of us would see them as dire threats to our very existence and the existence of our children. That "telepaths" might be an evolutionary step forward would be irrelevant; we, having seen the dire threat, would work rapidly and quickly to either control or exterminate them: There would be no leakers amoungst the "telepaths" and, thus, only a miniscule chance of leakage of any such telepathic program in the World's intelligence communities.
Of course, I, being a telepath, know this already, and there is nothing you or anyone else can do to either control or exterminate us, since we are already in control.
You only have an illusion of "free will." The only reason you typed, "You are dead wrong on this one, Dave W." is because I made you do it (I singled you out because you're one of the more "dangerous" of the homo sapiens sapiens around - and the word is in quotes because we control you, anyway). Frankly, I'd love to see you attempt to prove that you wrote those words of your own volition. We telepaths are far more powerful than you give us credit for.
In fact, this entire thread is designed to throw more "normals" off the trail. Look, Kil already thinks you're confusing fantasy for reality, just as we planned. We run the world to such an extent, I can leave this post here for all the world to see, and the "rational" among you puny-brains will assume that I, you, or both of us are either insane or joking. But you and I know the real truth, don't we....
Seriously, if anyone's looking for a definitive case of prejudice, I submit to you that "...the rest of us would see them as dire threats to our very existence and the existence of our children..." is it. True "telepaths," so far as we know, are a fiction, yet Computer Org has already condemned them.
Hey! When the heck did I pass 400 posts?!? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 02:32:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Computer Org:
While "telepaths" might think of themselves as the next stage in human evolution, the rest of us would see them as dire threats to our very existence and the existence of our children.
Someone has been watching too many Babylon 5 reruns....
Bester rocks! He's one of the coolest faschist evil guys there ever was. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 08:49:48 [Permalink]
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Yuk! My jaw is sore from trying not to laugh out loud (--library environment). Yuk, yuk! Yuk, yuk, yuk, yuk! Thanks, all. I needed to have my spirits lifted this morning. 
Kil: Yes, in fact, the Babylon-5 example popped into my head as I was writing but: Sorry. We don't have cable and even when we got B-5 it was usually snowy and grainy. No re-runs at all. The notion of "telepaths", however, is an old one in SciFi. I think that you could easily date it back to the Civil War (What better spy than a "mind reader"?) and probably even to earlier wars.
BTW, Kil. As much as I like The Bard, I'd sort of like to upgrade my signature from the 17th Century to the 21st, but whenever I try to change anything in my Page, it looks as if I will lose my avatar. I have a nice replacement from Billingsley's classical book on information (--which, BTW, is an extremely imporant source in any serious/scientific study of something like "telepathy"). Is it possible to sort of lift out my old sig from the data file and replace it with the new one without going through Snitz? On the other hand, I'm not embarassed by my current quote from Shakespeare.
Dave W.: As I understand the notion, when thinking, we all send out some kind of a signal (presumably EM but: Who knows?) and a "telepath" is someone who has evolved/refined enough sensory apparatus to "pick up" that signal. If I'm not a telepath, How do I pick up your signal so that you can say "I made you do that."?quote:
Seriously, if anyone's looking for a definitive case of prejudice, I submit to you that "...the rest of us would see them as dire threats to our very existence and the existence of our children..." is it. True "telepaths," so far as we know, are a fiction, yet Computer Org has already condemned them.
On the contrary. Having thought through the SciFi concept of 'telepathy' back in the '70s (and continued to think about it well into the '80s), I have concluded that the 'telepaths' have condemed their own selves --- to a life of bumbling incompetence, living off of other's thoughts like a bunch of mental lampreys, incapable of producing an original thought of their own (--because they've never had to).
As to whether they're fictional or not, I think that a true skeptic needs to be skeptical of both sides of a question. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 09:19:28 [Permalink]
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ComputerOrg wrote:quote:
Dave W.: As I understand the notion, when thinking, we all send out some kind of a signal (presumably EM but: Who knows?) and a "telepath" is someone who has evolved/refined enough sensory apparatus to "pick up" that signal. If I'm not a telepath, How do I pick up your signal so that you can say "I made you do that."?
You have a limited, naive notion of what a telepath is. The stronger among us, including me, can ramp up our brains to such a high state of activity that we can "drown out" your own signals. You think that the impetus for certain thoughts and actions come from your own head, when sometimes, they don't.
quote:
On the contrary. Having thought through the SciFi concept of 'telepathy' back in the '70s (and continued to think about it well into the '80s), I have concluded that the 'telepaths' have condemed their own selves --- to a life of bumbling incompetence, living off of other's thoughts like a bunch of mental lampreys, incapable of producing an original thought of their own (--because they've never had to).
Hence the prejudice. If real telepaths were to announce their presence, they may be nothing like what the "SciFi concept" says they'd be like. You've condemned them based on works of fiction, and not given the genuine ones a chance to prove themselves worthy of the same rights as you or I enjoy.
quote:
As to whether they're fictional or not, I think that a true skeptic needs to be skeptical of both sides of a question.
That's precisely why I said "so far as we know." If new and sufficient evidence arrives which points to telepaths actually existing (my pre-emptions of Gezzam in chat notwithstanding), I will change my mind. And until such a time as we gather enough information as to how real telepaths would actually function (or not) within our societies, calling them "a dire threat" is certainly anathema to a truly skeptical mindset. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 11:37:52 [Permalink]
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Ach! The agonies of being misunderstood.
In my view, (which might be wrong), telepaths would only be a threat were they to, in their bumbling bufoonery, get us into an extremely serious pickle. For example: How long before the rest of the World concludes that we, the U.S., pose a serious (--perhaps terminal--) threat to their right to self-rule;---self-rule as they see things, under their system of mores? If we didn't have WMD it would probably be no big deal; but we do. Under these conditions, a government where bumblingly incompetent telepaths have taken control would pose a serious threat.
quote:
Dave W.: And until such a time as we gather enough information as to how real telepaths would actually function (or not) within our societies, calling them "a dire threat" is certainly anathema to a truly skeptical mindset.
The "dire threat" that I was talking about was not from my perspective; but, rather, from the viewpoint of the multitudes who haven't spent any meaningful time thinking about the problem but simply, a la mode de "Homeland Security", charge into a knee-jerk reaction. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 18:02:07 [Permalink]
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Computer Org wrote:quote:
Under these conditions, a government where bumblingly incompetent telepaths have taken control would pose a serious threat.
Um, under those conditions, a government in which bumblingly incompetent anythings have taken control would pose a serious threat. Witness, as evidence, George W. Bush.quote:
The "dire threat" that I was talking about was not from my perspective; but, rather, from the viewpoint of the multitudes who haven't spent any meaningful time thinking about the problem but simply, a la mode de "Homeland Security", charge into a knee-jerk reaction.
So you're assuming, instead of bad things about the telepaths themselves, that they would be greeted with rampant xenophobia by the ignorant masses? While history may have plenty of examples along these lines, they aren't necessarily predictive of future situations. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 15:27:12 [Permalink]
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Here is an interesting sidelight that I failed to notice:quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
You have a limited, naive notion of what a telepath is. The stronger among us, including me, can ramp up our brains to such a high state of activity that we can "drown out" your own signals. You think that the impetus for certain thoughts and actions come from your own head, when sometimes, they don't.
This won't work unless I have the necessary recptors: You can blast a TV station at 100 megawatts but if I don't have a TV set I can't see your programming.
Your "the stronger among us etc." contains an implicit assumption: We are all telepathic; some of us are just better trained at using the skill than others.  Are you sure that you really can live with your tacit assumption?
On the other hand, you have made a good point. If 'they' are right and there is telepathy, then we can, in fact, be controled. 
Xenophobia? Hmmmm. Perhaps for those of us who discover that we're being manipulated by strong (but unwanted) telepathic transmissions.
This reminds me why I stopped going to Wal-Mart several years ago. Every time I stopped to look at something, a voice in my head said "Buy it!", "Isn't this nice.", "I need that.", etc. I have several hundred dollars of Wal-Mart stuff at home that are still in unopened boxes! (And I am NOT a compulsive buyer.)
Hmmmm. Maybe your joking is right-on, Dave-Oh. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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