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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2003 : 08:12:50
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Ok,
I made a couple LARGE mistakes. I had heard 70B but I was wrong.
Sorry if I came on a bit cocky, I'm not usually that way. I just have a very strong view, about this matter. Nothing in evolution has ever made any sense to me. When I say Doesn't make sense I don't mean I don't understand it. I mean it doesn't add up. And nothing can ever change the way I feel about that. Even if I stopped being a christian, I would still not believe evolution even in part happened.
I would be very confused, but evolution wouldn't be the way out of that confusion.The only thing answered in all your reply's was my age of the earth mistake.(which was a big one) But in reply to your various reply's. Just becauseyou one person couldn't find on the net that the earth is shrinking means nothing to me. I have heard from many respected scientists,(although they could have been lieing like they are about evolution itself)and also respected peers and adults, who have all told me, or acknowledged that the sun was shrinking. So in my view, that point still stands. People keep telling me "not all creatures fossilize". Well that doesn't tell me much. What have we found, I'm not gonna guess the number, but very few "Neanderthal" sculls or fossils. But I KNOW that the Neanderthals were around for millions of years, if what you say is true. Meaning that there were billions of them, maybe more. So if even 1 in 1000, or even in 10000 or 100000. We should still be finding them all over the place. As for one guy saying that evolution isn't efficiant. Maybe my view was a bit mis-guided on that area. But as for you saying our knees and our spine are "sloppy". Nothing could be further from the truth. Both knees and spines are perfectly crafted, tools, that i couldnt think of anything to make them better. I don't have a clue how you could think that they were somehow inadiquate. Then theres this fact and I have FULL evidence for this. A college did a study, and found out that the chances of one single cell forming the way you say it does are 1 in more than 100,000,000,000. And thats just 1 cell. i gtg bye
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 08:55:10 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
Nothing in evolution has ever made any sense to me. When I say Doesn't make sense I don't mean I don't understand it. I mean it doesn't add up.
Ah, the old "argument from incredulity," which is, basically, "it doesn't make sense to me, therefore it must be wrong." Do you see how such a conclusion might itself be wrong?quote:
And nothing can ever change the way I feel about that.
Okay, so you are refusing to even try to learn, but expect us to learn from you? That's not very Christian of you, now is it? Why should any of us bother with you, if you've got such a head-stuck-in-the-sand mentality?quote:
Even if I stopped being a christian, I would still not believe evolution even in part happened.
So what? Evolution doesn't deny anything in the Bible, unless you are trying to read the Bible as a literal, historical textbook. And if you're trying to do that, then there are a ton of resources on the Web to show just how self-contradictory the Bible is.quote:
I would be very confused, but evolution wouldn't be the way out of that confusion.The only thing answered in all your reply's was my age of the earth mistake.(which was a big one)
Not at all. Your every point was answered. If you refuse to read or try to understand the answers, that's your choice, but don't lie to us by saying that only one point was answered. It's a blatantly transparent lie that will doom your soul to Hell.quote:
But in reply to your various reply's. Just becauseyou one person couldn't find on the net that the earth is shrinking means nothing to me.
Since when is the Earth shrinking?!?quote:
I have heard from many respected scientists,(although they could have been lieing like they are about evolution itself)and also respected peers and adults, who have all told me, or acknowledged that the sun was shrinking. So in my view, that point still stands.
Ah, okay, it's the sun again. Listen: the measurements of the sun's shrinking only go back one or two hundred years, and there is evidence that the sun's size pulsates (gets bigger and smaller over time). If you take just the last hundred years of data, and extrapolate from it back billions of years, you can come to one of two conclusions: the Earth is very young, or extrapolating from a small sample of data like that is a bad idea. Since the young-Earth conclusion flies in the face of all the other methods of dating the Earth (which all generally agree on its antiquity), the only other conclusion is that the extrapolation was wrong.quote:
People keep telling me "not all creatures fossilize". Well that doesn't tell me much.
What it means is that expecting to find a fossil of every creature that's ever lived is an unrealistic expectation.quote:
What have we found, I'm not gonna guess the number, but very few "Neanderthal" sculls or fossils. But I KNOW that the Neanderthals were around for millions of years, if what you say is true.
Nope, you KNOW wrong.quote:
Meaning that there were billions of them, maybe more. So if even 1 in 1000, or even in 10000 or 100000. We should still be finding them all over the place.
Since your conclusion is based on a wildly incorrect premise, it had no merit at all.quote:
As for one guy saying that evolution isn't efficiant. Maybe my view was a bit mis-guided on that area. But as for you saying our knees and our spine are "sloppy". Nothing could be further from the truth. Both knees and spines are perfectly crafted, tools, that i couldnt think of anything to make them better. I don't have a clue how you could think that they were somehow inadiquate.
Then you're not thinking very hard. My wife, at age 30, has a bad back. Knees blow out in teenagers. That they are "perfected crafted" is a pleasant fiction, but a fiction nonetheless.quote:
Then theres this fact and I have FULL evidence for this. A college did a study, and found out that the chances of one single cell forming the way you say it does are 1 in more than 100,000,000,000. And thats just 1 cell. i gtg bye
That's a widely reported Creationist story, based upon a misrepresentation of how a cell might come about. See, kid, the problem is where you say, "one single cell forming the way you say it does." You apparently don't understand how real scientists think that the first cell formed. That "odds" argument is based upon the assuption that abiogenesis occured through random molecules and atoms sticking together in completely random ways. But any high-school chemistry teacher can demonstrate that molecules do NOT stick together randomly at all. In other words, this "fact" which you have "FULL evidence for" doesn't have anything to do with the real theories of abiogenesis or evolution.
Even if molecules did all stick together randomly, a 1-in-a-hundred-billion chance (that's your number) is fairly likely to happen given one hundred billion attempts. Considering that 12 grams of carbon has over six hundred thousand billion billion atoms in it, it seems that the odds you give of a cell spontaneously forming are so high as to be a near certainty in the vast oceans and tidal plains of primordial Earth, with billions upon billions upon billions of molecules floating about. In other words, 100,000,000,000 isn't a very large number, in the grand scheme of things. You might think it is, but that just demonstrates what's known as "innumerancy," a chronic problem in today's schools.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 09:10:55 [Permalink]
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If you want to observe a proper build for a biped, check out an ostrich. Ours is a cobbled-up mess designed to enrichen the orthopedic surgeons.
Neandertals were not around for millions of years and never numbered in the billions -- where do you get this crap? Did you read the links I posted? Or any of the links?
Ok, let's get down to the nitty and the gritty: Why exactly do you think scientists are lying to you?
Look; suppose I, Dr. Blatherskite T. Hornswoggle PhD, LLD, BYOB, found something that completly refuted the Theory of Evolution. Upon examination, I saw that it would not only survive peer review, it would blow my peers away. What would I do with it?
Would I hide this ground-breaking evidence in a cupboard or destroy it so as not to upset the comfortable, ToE apple cart? Not very damned likely, I would! I'd publish, bigtime! You'd have to shoot me to shut me up!
Then, my name would over-shadow Darwins and my place in history would be assured. I'd earn a fortune on the lecture circute and I'd be promised tenure in any university in the world. The Nobel committy would come to me to give me the prize.
In short, ain't nobody 'hiding' nothin' except the people who deny the existing evidence.
So, there it is; one of science's greatist prizes, up for grabs. Debunk the ToE, and you've won it all. Guess what; I don't think it's gonna happen. Those who rail against it put forth statements "Filled with words and music, and signifying nothing." Their empirical evidence simply isn't there. No evidence = no case for their claims.
You have obviously not studied your subject. Indeed, as near as I can tell, you've simply been taking some people, non-scientists, at their words. Not good; not good.
I strongly reccommend that you study on your own, the available literature, pro and con, then weigh the evidence. If you have a question, come here. One of us will find the answer.
Talk origins has a couple of excellent articles on abiogenisis. You might be interested to find out that long odds mean little to Evolution.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 09:26:15 [Permalink]
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Posted by Creation88: "Even if I stopped being a christian, I would still not believe evolution even in part happened."
By "christian" I assume (wrongly??) that you mean "a follower of the teachings brought by Jesus". Yes?? What did Jesus ever say about "creation"? Aren't you really talking about the OLD testament?
Shouldn't you have said "Even if I stopped being a (fundamentalist) Jew . . ." ? (Not that I think that many fundamentalist Jews---and it's their scriptures that discuss this subject---follow the notions of "strict Creationism".)
As to not finding skulls: Cooking is a very basic "tool" to learn. Stuff that is nearly inedible (like tough meat) becomes highly digestible and oh-so-yummy.
Soup is the easiest of all kinds of cooking "tools" to do. All you need is some kind of soup-pot and a steam or boiling-water vent to place the pot over. Since it is now widely believed that the N. ate their own dead folk, and since the very-best of soups is made by boiling the bones into nothingness (--filling the soup with bone- and teeth-building calcium--), there probably would be very few N. bones to be found.
All the above is from a very  -like non-anthropologist. But it makes great sense to me. 
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 09:35:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Soup is the easiest of all kinds of cooking "tools" to do. All you need is some kind of soup-pot and a steam or boiling-water vent to place the pot over. Since it is now widely believed that the N. ate their own dead folk, and since the very-best of soups is made by boiling the bones into nothingness (--filling the soup with bone- and teeth-building calcium--), there probably would be very few N. bones to be found.
Neandertal canniblism has been batted around quite a bit over the years, but I haven't paid much attention. I think I'll look it up and see what the current thought is. The evidence for canniblism will be cuts and nicks from butchering tools on the bones, and is usually pretty obvious.
On the other hand, there is evidence that at least some neandertals practised ceremonial burial.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 09:43:38 [Permalink]
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Bingo!!
http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/neandernews.html
Here's the lastest scoop on Neandertal. Some were indeed cannibals while others were not. Sounds a lot like us. 
Great article.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 09:47:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by creation88
quote:
Ok, I made a couple LARGE mistakes. I had heard 70B but I was wrong.
Sorry if I came on a bit cocky, I'm not usually that way. I just have a very strong view, about this matter. Nothing in evolution has ever made any sense to me. When I say Doesn't make sense I don't mean I don't understand it. I mean it doesn't add up. And nothing can ever change the way I feel about that.
Well, how do you know that? I would like to think that we all are ready to learn something every day, and if necessary update our views of the world. What's important is not what we would like to think is true, but rather what is true. Or, at least as close to the "truth" as is possible.
quote:
Even if I stopped being a christian, I would still not believe evolution even in part happened.
I would be very confused, but evolution wouldn't be the way out of that confusion.The only thing answered in all your reply's was my age of the earth mistake.(which was a big one)
Well it was a figure way off current theories and models, indeed. But it wasn't the only thing people said in their replies, was it?
quote:
But in reply to your various reply's. Just becauseyou one person couldn't find on the net that the earth is shrinking means nothing to me. I have heard from many respected scientists,(although they could have been lieing like they are about evolution itself)and also respected peers and adults, who have all told me, or acknowledged that the sun was shrinking. So in my view, that point still stands.
Why do you believe these scientists, whoever they are - I don't know - when it comes to the observations that fit your view of the world, but not the other things, such as evolution?
quote:
A college did a study, and found out that the chances of one single cell forming the way you say it does are 1 in more than 100,000,000,000. And thats just 1 cell. i gtg bye
I would like to know more about this study. What are the initial conditions, for example? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
| Edited by - Maverick on 06/26/2003 09:50:08 |
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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 09:51:06 [Permalink]
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Creation88:
quote:
And nothing can ever change the way I feel about that.
At 14 I felt much the same way about a great many things. One of the hardest things one can do is to step back from what they are fed by parents and teachers and critically examine not just what they believe, but, more importantly, why they believe it. The "why" should consist of an objective evaluation of the physical evidence, not preconceived conclusions based on what you've been fed by authority figures or so-called "common sense". Logical debate is welcome; please spare us the diatribes.
A long way from 14,
TG |
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 10:20:26 [Permalink]
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Hi creation88 - - I don't mean to sound rude (sorry if I do), but many of your arguments have very basic errors in them (which upsets me). I encourage you to research the subject further so you can decide for yourself based on the real evidence.
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Nothing in evolution has ever made any sense to me. When I say Doesn't make sense I don't mean I don't understand it. I mean it doesn't add up. And nothing can ever change the way I feel about that.
I do think that you've only seen bad (incorrect) descriptions of evolution, so it's no wonder it doesn't make sense. Try reading some actual scientific books on the subject.
quote:
Even if I stopped being a christian, I would still not believe evolution even in part happened.
Many Christians accept evolution. Including the Pope.
quote:
Just becauseyou one person couldn't find on the net that the earth is shrinking means nothing to me. I have heard from many respected scientists,(although they could have been lieing like they are about evolution itself)and also respected peers and adults, who have all told me, or acknowledged that the sun was shrinking. So in my view, that point still stands.
The sun is not shrinking. Here's a professional astronomer who says otherwise...
http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q1281.html
quote:
But I KNOW that the Neanderthals were around for millions of years,
Actually, they weren't. They were around for about 250,000 years in total (went extinct about 30,000 years ago).
quote:
Meaning that there were billions of them, maybe more.
They were one small species from only 1 region on Earth (Europe/Middle East). I'd be surprised if they got into the 10s of millions. We (H. sapiens) weren't able to break 1 billion until the 1800's. http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html
quote:
But as for you saying our knees and our spine are "sloppy". Nothing could be further from the truth. Both knees and spines are perfectly crafted, tools, that i couldnt think of anything to make them better.
Ever wonder why so many people (not at age 14, mind you) have back and knee problems?
Anyway, "better" for what purpose? Lifting more? More resistant to damage? More flexibility? More longevity? There are many obvious improvements.
quote:
Then theres this fact and I have FULL evidence for this. A college did a study, and found out that the chances of one single cell forming the way you say it does are 1 in more than 100,000,000,000. And thats just 1 cell. i gtg bye
What college? Reference? Where's the "full evidence"?
The thing is...that calculation (which no one seems to be able to provide) assumes the process goes from zero-to-cell (specifically, a cell as we know it) in one step. Again, that is not what happened, so the calculation is garbage. |
| Edited by - Phobos on 06/26/2003 10:23:25 |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 10:53:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Phobos:
<snipity snip>
Actually, they weren't. They were around for about 250,000 years in total (went extinct about 30,000 years ago).
<snip>
I feel the need to take slight umbrage with these (dogmatic?) facts.
With evidence that N. ate N. having been recently certified, it's not surprising that N. remains might be hard to find. Which is to say: Perhaps the number "250,000" is too small (--presumably, however, it is a minimum; assuming that the dating process was properly done).
As to the fact that N. "went extinct about 30,000 years ago": Contrary to comments that we humans are quick to fight/kill those who are different than us, there is a certain attraction to differences (--elsewise, of course, we'd all be gay  --). I see no reason whatsoever to think "extinction" was the process involved; far more likely, I think, would be an interbreeding that favored H. sapiens' characteristics. (My guess is that N.'s genetic material can be found in some humans living today; were, of course, someone only to LOOK rather than theorize and speculate!)
BTW, some "Christians" who are of the Creationist ilk do not think of the Pope as a fellow-Christian but, rather, as a "dirty, rotten, filthy Papist". Now, if only you had been able to cite the Rev. Jerry Falwell . . . .
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 11:53:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nothing in evolution has ever made any sense to me. When I say Doesn't make sense I don't mean I don't understand it. I mean it doesn't add up.
You truly do not understand it, your points in your previous post demonstrate that quite clearly.
quote:
And nothing can ever change the way I feel about that.
Then why in the hell are you here? You are not going to change our minds with this crap. Most of us have all seen it before, allot of us have even studied the points before to know that they are crap. Basically you are pissing in the wind, better duck.
quote:
Even if I stopped being a christian, I would still not believe evolution even in part happened.
So what. Do you really think that your beliefs or lack thereof are going to make me discredit all of the evidence I have studied?
quote:
but very few "Neanderthal" sculls or fossils.
To date there are over 1,000 Neandertal fossils. There are over 4,000 total hominid fossils. More are being discovered every year.
quote:
But I KNOW that the Neanderthals were around for millions of years, if what you say is true.
You know wrong. Neandertals were around for less than 200,000 years. Most likely their population was quite small living in the fairly harsh northern environments of Europe. Like other hominids and later humans they were hunter/gatheres meaning they lived in small villages of probably less than 50 individuals spread out over large areas.
quote:
Maybe my view was a bit mis-guided on that area.
Understatement of the year.
quote:
But as for you saying our knees and our spine are "sloppy". Nothing could be further from the truth. Both knees and spines are perfectly crafted, tools, that i couldnt think of anything to make them better. I don't have a clue how you could think that they were somehow inadiquate.
Because they are terrible for load balancing under stress. Having just blown my ACL out last year I can tell you that are knee ligaments are far less than perfect. The knee and lower back could have been implemented a hundred different ways and be better than we have now, but we got what we got, because we came from an arboreal quadruped ancestor ape.
quote:
A college did a study, and found out that the chances of one single cell forming the way you say it does are 1 in more than 100,000,000,000. And thats just 1 cell. i gtg bye
This data is actually correct, the chances of a fully functional modern cell forming from entirely random processes is astronomically high. But of course this has nothing to do with how we say the first life formed. First we know that chemicals don't react entirely randomly and in fact they react in very strict ways, so the process is anything but random. Secondly we don't expect the first "living" thing to be anything like a fully functional modern cell. |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 16:44:21 [Permalink]
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| Wow still no evidence. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 15:34:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I feel the need to take slight umbrage with these (dogmatic?) facts.
Dogmatic facts? The estimated time periods are based on available evidence as evaluated by experts in the field. The numbers have been and may again be refined as new data are obtained. They are not unshakable assumptions of faith.
quote:
With evidence that N. ate N. having been recently certified, it's not surprising that N. remains might be hard to find. Which is to say: Perhaps the number "250,000" is too small (--presumably, however, it is a minimum; assuming that the dating process was properly done).
It seems that Neandertal remains are the easiest to find of the other past homonid species (more specimens have been recovered than of other homonids). Perhaps there was some cannibalism, but they also had burials or dumps for the dead (stockpiled remains).
quote:
As to the fact that N. "went extinct about 30,000 years ago": Contrary to comments that we humans are quick to fight/kill those who are different than us, there is a certain attraction to differences (--elsewise, of course, we'd all be gay --). I see no reason whatsoever to think "extinction" was the process involved; far more likely, I think, would be an interbreeding that favored H. sapiens' characteristics.
This is a big ongoing debate. It seems every year new papers come out (by scientists) with arguments for and against the idea that H. neandertalensis interbred with H. sapiens. It's not a done deal.
Anyway, if they interbred, then they were assimilated, as they no longer are present as a separate species. (and therefore, "extinct" as a separate species...our ancestral species are extinct even though their bloodlines still continue in us)
quote:
(My guess is that N.'s genetic material can be found in some humans living today; were, of course, someone only to LOOK rather than theorize and speculate!)
Scientists are trying to check for genetic tracers of any interbreeding. It's an ongoing area of research.
quote:
BTW, some "Christians" who are of the Creationist ilk do not think of the Pope as a fellow-Christian but, rather, as a "dirty, rotten, filthy Papist". Now, if only you had been able to cite the Rev. Jerry Falwell . . . .
Fine, the Roman Catholic church is just one example. Others examples include Episcopal, Presbyterian, United Methodist, Evangelical Lutheran, and African Methodist Episcopal churches. |
| Edited by - Phobos on 06/30/2003 15:35:28 |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 16:00:39 [Permalink]
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| Don't know if this has been brought up, but wasn't there a skeleton of a girl found in portugal which exhibited characteristics of both neanderthal and homo sapiens? on the documentary I saw no one could agree whether it was a hybrrid or not. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 12:31:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
Don't know if this has been brought up, but wasn't there a skeleton of a girl found in portugal which exhibited characteristics of both neanderthal and homo sapiens? on the documentary I saw no one could agree whether it was a hybrrid or not.
yes, there was. a quick Google search of Neandertal + Portugal will provide many links |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 14:49:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Phobos
quote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
Don't know if this has been brought up, but wasn't there a skeleton of a girl found in portugal which exhibited characteristics of both neanderthal and homo sapiens? on the documentary I saw no one could agree whether it was a hybrrid or not.
yes, there was. a quick Google search of Neandertal + Portugal will provide many links
Like I posted in the thread "5) nenaderthal and Down's" there is little if no evidence of interbreeding between homo sapiens and neanderthal. The two diverged from eachother 500'000 years ago according to DNA-comparison. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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