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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2003 : 14:48:19
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hey,
I'll have you know, very few of thos eare actually in the bible and the few that are are things that don't have anything to do with the overall picture. Many things are taken out of context. such as point 4 where it says "god saw the things he had made and they were good".
Then later on it says that "he saw the wickedness of the world".
If your actually reading the Bible and not taking things out of context, you will find that things are good BEFORE the great fall, of adam and eve. and the wickedness comment is many chapters later, after sin has taken over. many of the number controdictions mean nothing or arent even there. (i checked and would like to know what site you were getting your info from cuz i actually used a bible). and also where it says, "there were 179 people in bethlehem, and then later says 188. put 175 people in a room and then tell two people to count them, you will get two different answers. so all the things you gave me mean nothing to the eternal work of god. if you can give me any that jesus or god actually said, that makes a real difference in a story (cuz the diff. between 179 and 188 has nothing to do with the actual context) if you can do that i again will be shocked. and as for your bat comment, not only does it not have anything to do with anything,but they probably had no idea of the difference between a mammal and a bird. so to them a bat was a bird.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 15:08:28 [Permalink]
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It would be a good idea if you could reply in the same thread as the post you're replying to.
And also, if you claim that evolution does not add up and that your God created everything, then why don't you show us proof? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 15:38:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
... the eternal work of god. ...they probably had no idea of the difference between a mammal and a bird.
You can't have it both ways. Is the bible "the eternal work of god" or is it the work of men?
If it is the work of god, every little detail should be consistent. Since every little detail is clearly not consistent, it is not the work of god (contrapositive).
If, as you imply, it is the work of men, it is fallible. If it is fallible, what criteria should be used to determine what is true and what is not? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 18:23:10 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
I'll have you know, very few of thos eare actually in the bible...
What are you saying here? Are you saying that they're not in your personal Bible, that the passages are there, but don't say the same thing, or are you accusing me of lying?quote:
...and the few that are are things that don't have anything to do with the overall picture. Many things are taken out of context. such as point 4 where it says "god saw the things he had made and they were good".
Then later on it says that "he saw the wickedness of the world".
If your actually reading the Bible and not taking things out of context, you will find that things are good BEFORE the great fall, of adam and eve. and the wickedness comment is many chapters later, after sin has taken over.
Okay, so you're telling me that God doesn't know the future, thus Adam and Eve's fall from Grace completely blind-sided Him? Not much of an omnipotent God if he couldn't see that one coming.quote:
many of the number controdictions mean nothing or arent even there. (i checked and would like to know what site you were getting your info from cuz i actually used a bible).
I told you which version of the Bible I was quoting from. Perhaps you'd have the common decency to do the same? Anyway, my source is The Unbound Bible from Biola University. You might notice that their Doctrinal Statement says, in part,quote:
The Bible, consisting of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, is the Word of God, a supernaturally given revelation from God Himself, concerning Himself, His being, nature, character, will and purposes; and concerning man, his nature, need and duty and destiny. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are without error or misstatement in their moral and spiritual teaching and record of historical facts. They are without error or defect of any kind.
Which appears to match your thinking. But, they still include the New American Standard version of the Bible, which contains many obvious errors and defects.
Back to your reply:quote:
and also where it says, "there were 179 people in bethlehem, and then later says 188. put 175 people in a room and then tell two people to count them, you will get two different answers.
This is the inerrent word of God we're talking about, not some census by a couple of unknown schmucks. Are you saying that if God were to count the same group of people twice, He'd get two different answers?!?quote:
so all the things you gave me mean nothing to the eternal work of god.
I never said that they would, I only challenged the historical accuracy of the Bible. I've presented the evidence which refutes the idea that the whole of the Bible is an inerrant historical text, which brings up the point which Boron made: which parts are reliable (if any), and which aren't?
Actually, what you are doing is a little dishonest trick called "moving the goalposts." You are now demanding that I give you examples of contradictions to "the eternal work of God," when before, all you asked for was a small set of contradictions within the Bible. I successfully passed your test, but you didn't like it, so you changed the rules. In many people's books (and I bet in the Bible itself), that's called "cheating," and it makes you look like a "jurk."quote:
if you can give me any that jesus or god actually said, that makes a real difference in a story (cuz the diff. between 179 and 188 has nothing to do with the actual context) if you can do that i again will be shocked.
I don't have any problems with many of the teachings of the Bible, such as "love your neighbors as you love yourself," and so see no need to find anything that makes a "real difference" (although I have little doubt that if I did, you would just cheat and move the goalposts again). What I do have a problem with is people taking a 2,000-year-old moral guidebook and claiming that it is scientifically and factually correct, and all the scientific and factual data we do have is wrong.quote:
and as for your bat comment, not only does it not have anything to do with anything,but they probably had no idea of the difference between a mammal and a bird. so to them a bat was a bird.
You must be kidding me! Leviticus 11 relates things that GOD SAID TO MOSES. You are now saying that God doesn't know the difference between a bird and a mammal.
It's hard to believe that a self-proclaimed Chirstian can be so clueless about the Bible.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 20:30:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
...so all the things you gave me mean nothing to the eternal work of god. if you can give me any that jesus or god actually said, that makes a real difference in a story...
Hi creation88,
It's true that some of the contradictions ('contra' is a Latin preposition meaning 'against' or 'in opposition to'; it's not controdictions, it's contradictions) cited may seem trivial, or "out of context" to you. So let's turn to some contradictions relevant to the discussion of creation (and, therefore, evolution).
Creation88, what's the order of creation in Genesis? Was it plants (1:9), light (1:14), birds and fish (1:20-23), land animals (1:24-25) and finally human males and females (1:26-27), or was it human males (2:7), plants (2:9), animals (2:19), and then human females (2:21-23)? What do you think, creation88? It can't be both-- it's one or the other, which, sadly for you, means there's a contradiction. And worse off, it's not on some minor point, like how many people are in a room. It's the order of creation. That's a big deal-- in order for 'creationists' (really just 'anti-evolutionists') to provide some alternative to the theory of the creation and diversity of life on this planet as described by those members of mainstream science, they're (=they are) going to have to get their (=possessive) stories right. But hell's bells! If the main reference for your cause isn't internally consistent, that's a problem! If your god can't even remember how he did things 6,000 years ago, who's to say he didn't screw up his telling of the Moses story, or the life of David, or his laws for moral conduct! It's a mess, creation 88-- are you shocked, yet? |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 20:48:33 [Permalink]
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ok,
I did not as you say "Move the goal posts". i acknowleged that there are some number mistakes.( which by the way it wasnt god talking it was the writer of the book, so it wasn't god messing up) i wasn't saying, oh he actually came up with something i better do something so that he's not right. i am not afraid to admit when i am wrong. such as you were right on the bat thing, i'm sorry i said you weren't.
and i know it's to late for this, but i did ,mis-speak when i said nothing would ever change my mind. all i meant by that was nothing i have heard from talking with evolutionists, or any of the people on here or there links, have changed my mind even slightly. but i am open to it if anyone wants to share somthing new with me. as for god not being omnipitent because he said it was good when it was, that doesn't make any sense. all he was saying was that it was good as it was right then. he wasn't predicting the future. he knew what was gonna happen, but the earth was good as it was. and back to you saying "i changed the goalposts, i was saying ok, thats all fine and good, but it doesn't have anything to do with the heart of the matter, and i was asking if you had anything deeper than just numbers.
i know i am, but i'm not trying to come off as a cocky kid who's in over his head. i am gonna be laughed at for saying that, but i am really not in over my head, so please stop acting like i'm 4, and maybe instead of telling me where you think i'm wrong tell me where you think your right, and maybe we could get somewhere. i'm not trying to go on about negative things, but please don't ever tell me how clueless i am about the bible. i understand more of the bible than you do. even if i have been wrong with some of my statments about evolution, im not wrong about this. everyone is gonna laugh at this too, but i am not trying to force the bible down anyones throte(spelled that way wrong) im not trying to be a tv evangalist, or a guy in a park preaching doom. all christians arent like that though thats the perception. honestly i came on here cuz i love to debate things. theres nothing better than a good debate.now please try hard notto send a condesending note back just try to answer my questions, and respond to my statements like you would an adult. im not as you keep saying, thinking you anything against god. i just like to get my views out there, and talk about them.
P.S. i am useing the "New King James" bible. i highly recomend it, because the "New Living Bible" is in its purpose paraphrases of the bible. so i would recomend NKJ, or NIV. |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 21:15:39 [Permalink]
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Why not the original amalgemation of Hebrew, Greek, and Latin? For anyone who has studied another language, it becomes quite cleared that all translations, no matter how close, are still different than the original. Additionally, things translated in the KJV were written by people well over a 1,000 years after the originals. Language drift would be immense. Even if the translators were fluent, much of the original text would not neccesarily have the same meaning as when originally written.
Simply look at Shakespears plays, written in english about 400 years ago and see the drift in our own language! Heck, even american english and british english have make signifigant divergence, even though we have regular modern communication.
Even if the original was perfect ( a goal post which it probably failed to attain.) , the translations would most certainly contain errors. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 21:24:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
... and maybe instead of telling me where you think i'm wrong tell me where you think your right, and maybe we could get somewhere. i'm not trying to go on about negative things, but please don't ever tell me how clueless i am about the bible. i understand more of the bible than you do...
Hi, creation88--
First off, I'm glad to hear that you aren't adament about being right. Personally, it is sometimes a great feeling being proven wrong. I mean, no one likes to actually be wrong, but by the same token-- when someone corrects you on, say, the politics behind such-and-such war, or the reasons why this team traded that guy to the other team, there's this great "Oh! Now it all makes sense" feeling that's hard to beat. It's also good to be corrected on a small anonymous web forum, rather than in front of a dozen friends at a party.
Anyhow, I find it curious that you want "us" to start telling you where we think we're right, rather than telling you where you're wrong. Because the reality is that much of your 'evidence' for creationism isn't about how you're right and everyone else is wrong. Instead, if you look at your posts, you'll see that you mostly spend time telling the evolutionists how they're wrong. Very little of your argument thus far has been supporting your creationist claims. In fact, it's not even clear what about creationism you follow. Are you a young earth creationist, or an old earth creationist? As of yet, you haven't said-- you've spent too much time attacking others, and not much time providing your own theories. So before you go requesting some positive discussion, you might want to try some yourself!
And lastly, let's not get into a debate about who is more clueless about the Bible. Even though most here are atheists/agnostics, the pervasiveness of Christianity in this country means that for much of our childhood Christianity's mythology was force-fed week after week. Most atheists are familiar with the Bible and its stories. Sadly, though, hard science (or even the humanities, with their own secular investigations of the ancient Middle Eastern world) doesn't have the same hold on America, and many children grow up in a delusional world where Jesus was a white man who spoke English, and evolution is a tool for humanists to legalize drugs, prostitution, and anything else.
Do you know a lot about the Bible? I don't know. But I'll wager that more than one of us knows quite a bit about the Bible and what it does and doesn't say.
Something to think about.
Have a good day!! |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/27/2003 06:19:14 |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 21:49:34 [Permalink]
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hey,
everyone says i am not giving what i actually belive, so i'm gona do my best to say what i believe. I believe that just as the bible says, "God created the Heavens and the Earth", and all the creatures that came along with it. You all know the story so i'm not gonna go through the whole thing. I believe the bible is completly true in all stories other than parables which were meant to be examples. Including the flood, the garden of eden, and any other story you can think of. I believe God is sovreign, he can do absolutly anything he wants, with no limitations. I believe in heaven and hell. I believe that the lord is a fair and extremly gracious god. I believe that he came to this earth, and died for our sins, when not one of us deserved it. I believe that he still influences everything today not just many years ago.( if anyone wants to talk to me about that point, i would be glad to share some miraculous stories that i and my family have been in) i want everyone to know, i do not look down upon non-christians, and think that i am better than them. this is the stereo-type of christians, and sadly to often it's true. i truly hope that each and everyone of you is convicted by the lord, and except him as your saviour. but im not gonna force feed it to anyone, when there not looking to eat. one last thing, a couple people have mentioned that the pope excepts evolution. that means nothing to me, because i do not consider catholics to be christians. not to say that there arent a handful of christians in the catholic church, but i believe that most are mis-led |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 22:00:58 [Permalink]
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| For fun: I fully except the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 01:04:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
hey,
everyone says i am not giving what i actually belive, so i'm gona do my best to say what i believe. I believe that just as the bible says, "God created the Heavens and the Earth", and all the creatures that came along with it. You all know the story so i'm not gonna go through the whole thing. I believe the bible is completly true in all stories other than parables which were meant to be examples. Including the flood, the garden of eden, and any other story you can think of. I believe God is sovreign, he can do absolutly anything he wants, with no limitations. I believe in heaven and hell. I believe that the lord is a fair and extremly gracious god. I believe that he came to this earth, and died for our sins, when not one of us deserved it. I believe that he still influences everything today not just many years ago.( if anyone wants to talk to me about that point, i would be glad to share some miraculous stories that i and my family have been in) i want everyone to know, i do not look down upon non-christians, and think that i am better than them. this is the stereo-type of christians, and sadly to often it's true. i truly hope that each and everyone of you is convicted by the lord, and except him as your saviour. but im not gonna force feed it to anyone, when there not looking to eat. one last thing, a couple people have mentioned that the pope excepts evolution. that means nothing to me, because i do not consider catholics to be christians. not to say that there arent a handful of christians in the catholic church, but i believe that most are mis-led
Again, what makes the bible's stories more likely than the proven theory of evolution? Why should we believe the creation myth? We need proof. It seems to me that you don't need one single bit of proof in favour of your creation myth, yet you reject theories with proof? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 04:10:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
For fun: I fully except the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour
After being "convicted by the Lord.....?"
'88, please do something about your writing. I hate to be a grammer nazi (no I don't! I love it!  ), but it's getting so I can scarcly deduce your meanings. You are very hard to read. You fail to use paragraphs; you use run-on sentences; you don't use capitals at the beginning of a sentence, and I dunno about your puncuation. I can't find it, what with the rest cluttering up the screed. Not to mention using the wrong words, obfusticating your meanings. The above two sentences are examples.
You did mean 'accept' and 'convinced', didn't you?
We ain't talkin' little typos and spelling errors here, no. We're talkin' literary terrorism.
Look son, my eyeballs (which were designed sort'a backwards in the first place -- TO has a page on that evolutionary screw-up) are old and wore out. I wear bifocals made from Coke bottles. Since I've been reading you, everybody thinks I have a hangover 'cause my eyes are so red.
I for one, might be interested in reading of your family's miraculous stories, but only if they don't give me a migrain whilst slogging through barely coherent text.
Please do not hand that sort of thing to your English teacher. If that teacher is at all compentent, you will be severly castigated.
Slow down. Use the preview feature to check your work before you post it. Develope the habit of thinking before you write lest someone mistake you for a Republican politition. It might take a little longer to get it all down, but at least it'll be read.
Edited to clean up some of mine own incoherencies.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/27/2003 04:21:13 |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 05:17:24 [Permalink]
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Creation88, you really need to learn a few debating skills. When you make a response to people, it would be much more helpful if you addressed each point that has been made to you. You can do this most easily by quoting from other people's posts (just hi-light, use copy and paste and the quote button on the toolbar). Just because you don't like a point, or can't find an answer to it, it doesn't mean you can ignore it.
Added to that, many links have been posted on this board to help you understand the issues you are trying to debate. Have you read any of them? I'm not sure, because you haven't said so.
And this is a specific point I would like you to address directly (quote from my post in response, please).
You keep telling us you have "more" evidence for creation. However, you then just provide what you consider to be evidence against evolution. Let's assume for a moment that you actually managed to provide enough evidence to bring the theory of evolution into serious doubt (you haven't done so yet, by the way). In what way does this provide any evidence at all for creation?
You do not seem to understand what evidence is, and how to present it in support of what you believe to be true.
Let me make it easier for you. Instead of posting "evidence" against evolution, I'd like you to post the evidence you have for creation. Never mind evolution, let's pretend it doesn't even exist as a theory. You put up here the evidence you have for creation, and we'll go on to debate that.
Over to you.
Edited to correct spelling. |
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
| Edited by - NottyImp on 06/27/2003 05:20:29 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 09:32:41 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
I did not as you say "Move the goal posts". i acknowleged that there are some number mistakes.( which by the way it wasnt god talking it was the writer of the book, so it wasn't god messing up)
But the number mistakes, since they are exact numbers, not estimates, make the idea that the Bible is an inerrant historical text laughable. That was my only point. By not acknowledging that, and instead asking me for evidence of problems affecting the stories, you appeared to be moving the goalposts.
Skipping ahead for a second...quote:
and back to you saying "i changed the goalposts, i was saying ok, thats all fine and good, but it doesn't have anything to do with the heart of the matter, and i was asking if you had anything deeper than just numbers.
And as I've said, it doesn't matter if the number problems don't reach "the heart of the matter," because I'm not saying that the number problems disprove the existence of God. All I am disputing is the idea that the Bible is an always-correct historical document, as you implied it is.
At this point in time, I think it's safe to say that you're not a literalist. Am I correct? Or does "God made the world in six days" mean to you that God actually spent six 24-hour periods creating the universe?
The difference is important, since the assumption that the Bible is literally true is easily shown to be false. If the Bible is only supposed to be metaphorically true, however, I don't have much of a problem with that, since it reduces the Bible to a bunch of stories meant to illustrate a certain set of moral principles, and nothing else.
Okay, on to weightier matters:quote:
all i meant by that was nothing i have heard from talking with evolutionists, or any of the people on here or there links, have changed my mind even slightly. but i am open to it if anyone wants to share somthing new with me.
What you should have learned already is that the bits and pieces of your understanding of what evolution means that you've chosen to share with us so far are simply wrong. You've already heard this from someone else, but it really is no wonder at all that evolution "doesn't make sense" to you, because your image of what it is is completely screwed up. It is vitally important, if you want to debate evolution, that you know what scientists refer to when they say the word.
In its simplest form, 'evolution' refers to a change in the genetic make-up of a population of organisms over time. That's it, period. Not "change for the better," but just "change." Not "individual," but "population."
This change can be measured. If somebody handed you the proper tools, and taught you how to use them, you could measure evolution taking place, in a matter of months. Because evolution is happening all around us, at all times. Probably the most widely-known example of evolution happening in our lifetimes is that of the antibiotic-resistant bacteria which now pervade our hospitals. Powerful antibiotics have existed for less than 60 years or so.
And none of this disproves, or even attempts to disprove, the existence of God. While there are several parts of the Bible which are contradicted by evolution if the Bible is supposedly literally true, evolution contradicts no part of the Bible at all if the Bible is simply metaphorically 'true' (if its teachings are all parables).
After all, the point you have left unanswered isn't going to go away by you ignoring it: if parts of the Bible were written by men, and are therefore fallible, how do we choose which parts to believe as the revealed Truth of God, and which parts are just parables?
Take the Flood story, for example: if you read it as people read, say, ancient Native American stories, it appears to be a myth about where rainbows come from, and little else. To take the story as an account of an actual, world-wide flood is too much, since there is no physical evidence for such an event (unless the evidence has almost all been subducted, in which case the timeline is all wrong). And to take the story as strictly literal, we are asked to believe that rainbows didn't exist prior to the Flood, despite everything we know about the physics which creates them today.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 12:34:37 [Permalink]
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There is actually quite a bit of evidence for the flood, that poeple either choose to ignore or take as some sort of evolutionary thing that formed over time. For example the Grand Canyon.
As for the talk of rainbow's not exsisting before the flood. That would make sense, if the bible is literal which I believe it is. Because it didn't work the same way before the flood. The bible says that it was like a canopy of water over the earth, and it didn't rain. Until the flood when it says god broke the canopy and the water poured down on the earth.
You wouldn't have to decide what was a parable, and what was literal. Because god told many of the writers, go do this then write what you see. Or they were writing what had been passed down through stories so they were getting things second hand. And god knows that the number of people in one place means nothing.
I would actually say that I am a literalist. I thinnk theres a chance god made the world in six 24 hr periods. But maybe not. Because "Day" does not in its root mean "a 24 hr period". It is by definition, a block of time. So it could have been whatever he wanted it to be. But things like that don't matter to me, because thats not the intention of the story at all. People stress to much about things like-- Was it seven 24 hour periods or somthing else-- When will the end times exactly happen, and how will they really happen-- If we needed to know those things god would have told us specificly. So I could care less in most ways.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 12:47:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
For example the Grand Canyon.
Hehe, ok, exactly how is the Grand Canyon evidence for a global flood? Please tell. |
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