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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
 Posted - 06/27/2003 : 09:37:41
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Major-General and Senator Strom Thurmond died last night at 9:45.
He was a remarkable man----an American's American.
The CBS story (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/26/national/main560633.shtml) is remarkably even- and fair-handed. It's well worth reading.
Although as a U.S. Representative he was exempt from military service in WW II, he not only joined the Army and participated in the Normandy invasion but he did so on a glider----considered to be the single most dangerous method of insertion.
It is little known, but after the War Thrumond continued as an Army Reservist, eventually rising to the rank of Major-General and becomming known as the "Father" and "Dean" of Civil Affairs. If the Army/DoD had fully used the Civil Affairs specialists in post-war Iraq, most (if not nearly-all) of the troubles now being experienced would, with fair likelihood, not exist. With Strom Thurmond "out of the picture", who was to promote the use of this obscure (and universally despised) branch of the Army? Seemingly: no one.
It was a sad and bad thing that the Democrats did, disrupting Thrumond's retirement proceedings just to "get at" their arch-enemy, the Senior Senator from Mississippi. That episode was, IMO, one of the most disgusting in American Political history.
While the Democrats accused Thurmond of racism, using such facts as this paragraph from the CBSNews storyquote:
"I want to tell you," he declared in one speech in 1948, "that there's not enough troops in the Army to force the Southern people to break down segregation and admit the Negro race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes and into our churches."
the next paragraph from the story tells a different, and much more accurate story:quote:
But his 1950 defeat in a bid for reelection as governor came at the hands of an opponent who made an issue of Thurmond's appointment of a black physician to a state medical advisory board.
Even more telling is yet another paragraph from CBSNews.com:quote:
Thurmond became the first Southern senator to hire a black aide, supported the appointment of a black Southern federal judge and voted to make Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday a national holiday.
Yet while the Democrats tried to destroy a great man's life's memories just a few months before his death (for naught but trivial political gain), it seem that the Angels were watching out for the REAL things in Thurmond's life to the very end:quote:
Before dying, Thurmond reportedly had a chance to see his newborn grandson - seeing him for the first time, in the last hours of his own life.
Good bye, old friend. We who truly care about the United States of America and its great foundations, will sorely miss you.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 13:00:46 [Permalink]
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So long Strom. Happy trails.
I neither grieve nor rejoice at your passing; after all, we all do it. I will leave the grief for your family, friends, and political allies. I will leave those who knew you best to rejoice.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 17:41:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
the next paragraph from the story tells a different, and much more accurate story:
quote:
quote:
But his 1950 defeat in a bid for reelection as governor came at the hands of an opponent who made an issue of Thurmond's appointment of a black physician to a state medical advisory board.
Strom Thurman's
The Southern Manifesto:
http://www.strom.clemson.edu/strom/manifesto.html
This was written 6 years after he got over his racism. And yet...
I don't want to get into a fight over this, but frankly, making him out to be one of the founding fathers of civil rights almost made me gag.
I do not celebrate his death. However, I was happy when he left the Senate. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2003 : 19:56:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
the next paragraph from the story tells a different, and much more accurate story:
quote:
quote:
But his 1950 defeat in a bid for reelection as governor came at the hands of an opponent who made an issue of Thurmond's appointment of a black physician to a state medical advisory board.
Strom Thurman's
The Southern Manifesto:
http://www.strom.clemson.edu/strom/manifesto.html
This was written 6 years after he got over his racism. And yet...
I don't want to get into a fight over this, but frankly, making him out to be one of the founding fathers of civil rights almost made me gag.
I do not celebrate his death. However, I was happy when he left the Senate.
Course we all remember the recent 'self-destructing' of Trent Lott. No doubt Lott is still gnashing his teeth over his ousting as Republican Senate Leader. This due to his own racist glad-handing at Thurmond's 100th b.day roast last December.
I never cared much at all for Thurmond and his own staunch racist background.
-edited for typo |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
| Edited by - Randy on 06/27/2003 19:58:12 |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 06:47:03 [Permalink]
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From the news-story on MSNBC ( http://www.msnbc.com/news/105994.asp?cp1=1 ), the following paragraph:quote:
Thurmond's name was very much in the news as he retired from the Senate in 2002. At a party honoring the centenarian senator, Republican Trent Lott declared that the United States would have been better off if Thurmond, instead of Harry Truman, had won the 1948 presidential election.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 18:19:42 [Permalink]
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Next paragraph, same article:quote:
Lott's statement — which seemed to wax nostalgic for the days of racial segregation — led to his ouster as Senate Republican leader.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 07:52:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Next paragraph, same article:quote:
Lott's statement — which seemed to wax nostalgic for the days of racial segregation — led to his ouster as Senate Republican leader.
Bah, humbug! Has it occurred to you that Sen. Lott might have meant exactly what he said?quote:
Originally from MSNBC:
Thurmond's name was very much in the news as he retired from the Senate in 2002. At a party honoring the centenarian senator, Republican Trent Lott declared that the United States would have been better off if Thurmond, instead of Harry Truman, had won the 1948 presidential election.
It's often tricky to estimate an alternative history, but this one seem fairly clear. With Strom Thurmond---he who voluntarily left the comfortable safety of the U.S. House of Representatives for the ghastliness of the 82nd Airborne Division's insertion into the Normandy invasion---as Commander-in-Chief rather than the World War I artillery veteran (H. Truman), would Korea have been allowed to become such a military "basket-case"? Surely not! Would, in fact, the decimated U.S. military of 1948 been allowed to continue in its decimated state under Strom Thurmond? Almost certainly: ABSOLUTELY not!
Under these conditions, would the North Korean Army have marched almost unapposed down the Korean penninsula? NOT LIKELY!
This SURELY is MORE than enough reason for Sen. Lott to have said: "...the United States would have been better off if Thurmond, instead of Harry Truman, had won the 1948 presidential election."
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 08:34:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Ah, Thurmond Apologetics. Interesting.
Double bah! Double humbug!! Is THAT how one avoids a subject with which one disagrees?
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 09:06:08 [Permalink]
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| Apparently it's how you avoid subjects you disagree with. Just like Christian Apologizers, you're taking for granted historical possibilities which can't ever be proven because (A) they didn't happen, and (B) we don't have time machines. You could have argued that things might have gone differently, but as soon as you said "absolutely" with regard to any of those things, you left the realm of reason, and entered the realm of faith. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 10:02:11 [Permalink]
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Ah, yes: Well, you are absolutely right, of course, to say:quote:
...as soon as you said "absolutely" with regard to any of those things, you left the realm of reason, and entered the realm of faith.
In truth, you had me feeling pretty queesy (--Did I really do such a thing?!?!?--) until I looked back and noticed that what I wrote (in full context!) was:
"Almost certainly: ABSOLUTELY not!"
And: Please not to ignore that I started the whole thing off with the caveat:
"It's often tricky to estimate an alternative history...."
I'll stick with what I wrote (--and drink some calcium-rich milk to settle the queesiness you put in my poor, olde belly). |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 10:40:10 [Permalink]
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Computer Org wrote:quote:
And: Please not to ignore that I started the whole thing off with the caveat:
"It's often tricky to estimate an alternative history...."
Oh, I didn't ignore that, but I didn't ignore what you wrote right after that, either:quote:
...but this one seem fairly clear.
Whatever "seem fairly clear" doesn't much matter when we've got no way to confirm that your speculations are, indeed, what would have happened.
For all you know, Strom would have been so cocky from being elected President, that we wouldn't have entered Korea at all because the military would have been too busy shipping black people to Africa at gunpoint. CNN keeps reporting he was running on a "strong segregationist platform" back in '48, and what would be stronger segregation than sending people across an ocean?
Seems to me that my wild-ass guess is exactly as provable as your contentions about what might have happened. What, in particular, makes one any better than the other?
In other words, what makes your defense of Thurmond and Lott any different from the standard apologetics we hear from fundamentalist Christians?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 11:00:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
...what makes your defense of Thurmond and Lott any different from the standard apologetics we hear from fundamentalist Christians?
I'm afraid that I don't pay attention to the "apologetics we hear from fundamentalist Christians" since I find them to be neither fundamentalist nor Christian.
Not to beat a dead horse, but could you tell me what their apologetics are (--as to someone who doesn't even know what 'apologetics' are, which I don't).
Also: The storms are moving in and so (--I post from the PublicLibrary--) I must hie my hieny elsewhere. My response to anything you might be willing to write may be a while. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 03:29:09 [Permalink]
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 11:31:17 [Permalink]
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In this thread, Computer Org wrote:quote:
I don't, however, feel as if I am a "Thurmond apologist"; his career was glorious, nearly-impecable (IMO) and stands fully on its own merits. Not only do I NOT find a hint of racism, I believe that Strom Thurmond was a major force for anti-racism.
Where is your skepticism? Can't you smell the stench of a mere -- but grubby -- political ploy to get rid of the Senior Senator from Mississippi (--whose name I seem to have forgotten)?
Actually, I never gave either position much thought. Whether or not Thurmond was a racist is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Your defense of Thurmond (above) rested upon what he would have done had he been elected President. Since it didn't happen (and cannot happen), and because people change all the time, you cannot know those things would have been true.
How then, is your defense of Thurmond any different from a Biblical literalist claiming that God changed the speed of light to make things look old, or any of a vast variety of similar apologetics? Both your posts above, and the literalist's articles, rest conclusions upon thoroughly untestable assumptions, created - apparently - from great faith.
Now, about your point: do you know where I can find some literature which shows that the Dixiecrats weren't strongly segregationist, or that segregation doesn't necessarily equal racism? Or, perhaps, that Thurmond's choice of party was independent of his own personal political views? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 14:12:10 [Permalink]
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If you were trying to remind me how much I utterly LOATHE the entire Democratic Party, you have succeeded.
(By following the Teachings of Jesus, I managed to convince myself to forget about that: a version of 'turning the other cheek'. I was actually starting to think about voting for a Democrat to be the next President and Army Commander-in-Chief. Gag!)
As to the point of contention: You are talking about "Alternative Histories" which are really sort of a 'wobbling' due to the existence of "Free Will". (Do you believe in "Free Will" -- the flip side of the BibleThumpers' inflexible determinism? If not, our discussion, alas, dies. But if so, I will give a try to answer your question and refute your nearly-impossible posit about Thurmond-alternatives. There is a saying: "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.". Still: If you do believe in "Free Will", then I will do my best to discourse.  ) |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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