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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2003 : 09:30:48
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On the psoriasis newsgroup, it was recently suggested that telling somebody who is getting relief from a bogus medical practice that it is, indeed, a bogus medical practice may screw up any "placebo effect" they might be experiencing. So, when someone says, "well, my psoriasis is going away due to (insert name of whacky therapy or product here)," skeptics should keep their big mouths shut so that that person can keep on believing whatever it is actually helps their symptoms.
I countered that for every person who tries something-or-other for their disease, there are going to be dozens or hundreds (if not thousands or millions) of other people who will think, incorrectly, "well, that stuff helped him, it should help me, too." I happen to think that it is less ethical to not speak up about quackery to protect the few who get benefit, instead of shouting "bogus!" to attempt to help the vastly greater number of people who haven't blown their budgets buying from the quacks, yet.
This doesn't, of course, need to be specifically psoriasis-oriented, it applies to any disease, and also to any form of quackery which is indistinguishable from placebo. I'm interested in what other skeptics have to say about this obviously thin line between trying to help individuals and trying to help society: there's a dark side to either option, but which is darker?
Or shall we just go with Spock's "needs of the many" argument? 
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 18:20:43 [Permalink]
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Dave,
I've seen dozens of quack helps for my mother's MS. Fortunately, she's always waited for the medical reviews to come in. Everything from bee stings to rattlesnake poison to cure the MS. Including the concept that the disease is viral in nature and drinking certain teas will help wash the virus from the system. There is no known cause for MS, yet. There is also no known cure.
Telling someone that what they are trying is quackery is ethical. I've seen people destroy their finances running after quack cures for everything from cancer to MS. If something works, subject that something to proper testing. Additionally, some quack cures have side effects that are detrimental to the patient.
I would tell someone what I know, why and how. I'd not like for someone to be injured by my failure to say something. To me that is far more unethical than allowing rampant silly belief. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 22:58:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I happen to think that it is less ethical to not speak up about quackery to protect the few who get benefit, instead of shouting "bogus!" to attempt to help the vastly greater number of people who haven't blown their budgets buying from the quacks, yet.
thin line between trying to help individuals and trying to help society: there's a dark side to either option, but which is darker?
Or shall we just go with Spock's "needs of the many" argument?
what a great debate question and you worded it so concisely.
1st impression....judge each case individualy.
I have a friend who can hardly get by each month, yet she buys mail order pricey vitimans. I tried to tell her if she even needed that stuff she could buy off brand names at the local store for far less money. She would not listen to me. Hey! I tried. What can one do?
I hate to see her ripped off but she feels a great benifit from them.
In this case I don't think she is harmed physicaly and I told her about the money so it's her choice.
If it WAS something dangerous I might take more drastic action.
Have you ever read the list of side effects on 'real' medication. There are some my doctor prescribed and I won't take them.
When I've asked about the things that can happen if one has one of those side effects the doctors and pharmacists say they have to put that disclaimer on there because maybe 1 out of a million could have a reaction.
So, in what percentage does one consider the greater good?
I guess what I'm saying is, even proven methods can go wrong and they know it. You can't protect everyone all the time.
If someone thinks they are getting help from a phony cure and it's not doing anything worse perhaps that the same as taking what a doctor gives you and hope you are not that one in a million that won't get worse either.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 00:12:33 [Permalink]
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Snake,
There are strict controls on the manufacturing processes for medications that there are not for the 'food supplements' which all vitamins fall under. This means that efficacy is not proven, nor are there any controls on the way these products are manufactured. Would you rather know that the environment in which your medications are produced are clean and controlled or that there are no controls on the areas where something you are putting in your body are produced. Most vitamin manufacturers fail to meet minimum requirements by the FDA for production of product, pharmacueticals are in far worse shape than a 'food supplement' production facility if there are problems in the production lines. Check the FDA website for information on who fails to meet cGMP (common Good Manufacturing Processes).
Quackery is ahead in the game because they can produce cheap products, claim it does things that aren't necessarily true (FDA is cracking down on this too), and sell it for high prices. It's about profit. Centrum (tm) vitamins is one of the few manufacturers who ensure their production facility meets cGMP requirements.
Edited because I can't figure out how to make the forum code work properly. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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| Edited by - Trish on 07/02/2003 00:15:29 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 07:48:00 [Permalink]
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There are definitely some people who, no matter how much you try to explain that what they're doing is, at the very least, worthless, will simply refuse to believe you. They've got faith in the vitamins or what-have-you.
I recently had an email discussion with someone who was a proponent of homeopathy. She cited a couple of studies in support, and when I pointed out all the methodological and other problems in those studies, which made them poor evidence, she basically just said, "well, you've got your opinion, and I've got mine." There's no way to use reason against such system of belief.
At any rate, it's clear that there are at least a few people one need not worry about when considering the possibility of ruining their placebo effect. For them, the effect is self-sustaining, and not subject to change, period. I'm more concerned with those folks who have had a "lucky accident," but are reasonable enough that they aren't personally attached to whatever the heck it is they're using.
A "case by case" basis is usually how I determine how to write criticisms of therapies which aren't known to have any therapeutic effects. I just about always will be critical, but how to be critical is a result of my "audience." If it's someone who's grown so attached as to accuse me of being in the pocket of the drug companies (I'm not making this up), I can be pretty harsh in response. If it's someone who's just curious, I try to be gentle.
And since you brought it up, Snake, there's a reason I was specifically avoiding painting this as a "mainstream medicine vs. alternative medicine" question: your position that some mainstream medicines are dangerous, too, is unquestionably correct, but also irrelevant to the question of whether allowing people to live under a delusion that, say, scented oils or bee vomit has therapeutic effects is more or less ethical than destroying whatever benefits some of them might be getting from a placebo effect. (Though I must confess to being curious about what drugs you've been given, just to be able to look up the side-effect profile, and perhaps find some info on Medline for you.)
By the way, whether or not your friend in endangering herself depends on which, specific vitamins she's gobbling. Overdoses of water-soluble vitamins like C get eliminated in urine pretty quickly, but fat-soluble vitamins like A can build up over time to toxic levels. Don't eat polar-bear liver, for example. Mostly, she's probably just hurting her own wallet, 'cause it does tend to be pretty hard to do oneself in with these things. One of the easiet with which to harm yourself is zinc (you can even overdose on zinc by drinking water out of galvanized buckets), but you'll be puking sick before you do any serious damage. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 07:53:31 [Permalink]
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Trish wrote:quote:
Centrum (tm) vitamins is one of the few manufacturers who ensure their production facility meets cGMP requirements.
And that's because they got whacked hard by the FDA for not doing so, years ago. Wish I could find something on the Web about it. I'm not up to scrambling through the FDA's site right now. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 10:37:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Trish wrote:quote:
Centrum (tm) vitamins is one of the few manufacturers who ensure their production facility meets cGMP requirements.
And that's because they got whacked hard by the FDA for not doing so, years ago. Wish I could find something on the Web about it. I'm not up to scrambling through the FDA's site right now.
Yeah, I know. Worked in security for a pharmacuetical company. Even we were required to attend all the continuing education workshops they offered, courtesy of the FDA and DEA.
I don't blame you for not wanting to scramble through the FDA website, I didn't either.
If choosing a multi-vitamin, I'd go with Centrum (tm) for now. I know they're under close scrutiny.
Most ofthers don't necessarily contain the amount of active ingredients that they claim. The FDA is harsh on those that make unsupportable claims. This is a recent development. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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