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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
 Posted - 08/23/2003 : 09:12:09
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Hello
Wow cool site :)
I should really post this after a few drinks but what the hell.
I haven't searched for any posts that cover the subject above yet, so forgive me for being lazy. I find this subject (yoga) quite interesting for many reasons, the biggest being that psychic phenomena are part and parcel of it. Hinduism we could say is the mother of the "science" of yoga and has atheist and theist beliefs. Yoga doesn't require belief but just practice, they say. The goal of yoga is Self-realisation, with one side saying there is no Self and the other saying there is.
Firstly, i would generally like to talk about unexplaned phenomena. I find it funny that such things haven't been proved by science. In fact, one well known Yogi, Swami Vivekananda, says that if Yoga is to be successful, the first two branches of Patanjali's Yoga aphorisms, Yama and Niyama, must be observed. These branches cover the moral reasons for spiritual success. Obviously, this seems like a weary take on science to me. Good and bad don't seem to be relevant to scientific research, as we can see from such things as abortion and genetics. Yet the swami would have us believe that Yoga is a science ONLY after the morals are kept in check. Relevantly, other YOgis and gurus contradict the swami in this respect by saying that we must observe our yama and niyama but the chief importance is placed on meditation, somewhat nullifying the ciritical need for the morals and giving them a back seat. So, i'm wondering where God's grace comes into all this. If meditation is a science whereby interior states of consciousness are experienced that is somewhat supernatural in origin, like chakras etc, then what of devotion? God seems to choose people as a subject for His grace in mysterious ways...
A man i had the opportunity of communicating by email with who is an authority on Yoga told me that science requires devotion as much as Yoga. However, it is clear to see that the kind of devotion scientists use compared to the madman-like ecstatic emotional states of devotees are world's apart. A good case in point is that of Paramhansa Ramakrishna, who, after much austerity and devotion had not seen God, proceeded to commit suicide when at the last moment before the act God appeared to him. THe rest of his life was God-filled and his behaviours were sometimes out of keeping with 'normality'. The point is, religious devotees display emotional behaviours towards their quest for Self-realisation whereas scientists devote their time rationally and non-emotionally to their experiments and theories.
We have such things as chakras which are energy centres located at specific physical places but are of a different density of vibration. The chakras are the main energy centres of the energy 'body' or astral form. All schools of metaphysics seem to be in agreement that there are seven chakras but many other schools claim more than seven. That is unscientific. Further, the idea of kundalini comes in, which is a coiled-up serpent energy situated in the base chakra near the perinium, which when aroused ascends up the spinal column through all the chakras until it reaches the head and then Self-realisation results. The sixth chakra, or third eye, plays a significant role. We all know about the third eye and its symbolism. One school, Self-Realization Fellowship, even claims that the third eye can be seen in deep meditation as having a gold ring encircling a blue sphere with a five pointed star in the middle and that this vision is universal. The gold signifies the wings of a dove (you have seen this imagery no doubt before) and the blue and white are other symbolic things. As in the dove descending on Christ at his baptism in the desert. The problem i have with this idea is that everybody describes the third eye differently even though there are some simliarities. There are connotations with the third eye which do not add up if scutinized properly. So, where is the evidence for all this? I had someone tell me that a man has measured Kundalini with instruments. It begs a few important questions, namely that if kundalini has been proven, wouldn't we all know about it? In truth, no such thing exists. And i doubt that that is just my opinion.
It is surprising the level of fundamentalist attitudes that come up when talking about mystical yoga. It is akin to talking to a fundamental Christian in that if you bring the sceptical viewpoint in concerning Yoga, the response you get is typically negative and even hostile.
Then we come to the miracle aspects. Yogis claim levitation, healings, bilocation, telepathy, controlling nature etc etc. Patanjali devotes a whole section of the aphorisms to these phenomena. We all know that magicians can reproduce such psychic things. What i want to know is why people are deluding themselves that these things actually exist? For what possible reasons could someone claim to have had experiences of supernatural type unless they are deluded?
It gets worse. A guru by the name of Sai Baba. Producing ash from thin air. You can download a video of him performing this "miracle" from the internet. Someone secretly gives him a small capsule of ash which he uses with sleight-of-hand trickery to convince his believers that he is materialising ash from the ether. He even has an astonishingly bad haircut. Plus, he is a certified paedophile (except the Indian authorities have him in good stead and he has friends in high places). Who actually buys this c**p?
I think it goes without saying that people generally have the ability to anaesthetise themselves but why do they have to use the word 'energy' in such a way that it makes it all sound very mystical and special? The energy they are talking about is nervous energy - not some spiritual unseen, undetected by science, astral vibrational specialness...
I'd like to hear any viewpoints concerning yoga. The yogis never talk about their 'experiences' because they say it is a detriment to their evolution. The experiences are left up to those that know little if nothing about yoga to begin with who talk about their psychic lives with abondon, and who, by all observable means, contradict themselves in all sorts of ways and never agree on any one thing being the same, or a universal phenomenon.
Yogi tea has nothing on PG Tips
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 08/23/2003 : 10:13:52 [Permalink]
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Hi Badman!
I don't know much about yoga, but I wanted to welcome you to our humble abode. 
Isn't there a guy in India who debunks mystical c**p, kinda like our James Randi? I also wonder just what kind of mind set allows people to believe in such things as psychic healing, levitation, bilocation, etc.,etc. I used to be interested in astral projection (this was many years ago), so I tried and tried and tried to accomplish it, having read all the relevant books I could get ahold of, all to no avail. I eventually realized that it was just wishful thinking on my part, and accepted reality. What I don't understand is why many other people refuse to see that their beliefs are likewise wishful thinking. It boggles the mind!
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the board, and I'll be looking forward to hearing from you again.
Walt
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"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2003 : 13:10:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Badman
Hinduism we could say is the mother of the "science" of yoga and has atheist and theist beliefs. Yoga doesn't require belief but just practice, they say.
It's been many years since I studied Oriental philosophy but as I recall.....Hinduism is only theist. I think that's the difference between Buddhism which is atheistic. (Because the Buddha grew up in a Hindu society, he knew about it but developed his own thought system.)
Therefore a yoga or the practice thereof is a belief in something as opposed to just following a discipline. That's why I don't do the yoga that has the physical aspect of it. Although the exercise might be healthy there are other ways to be limber so why choose something associated with religion?
While one is doing the physical he is supposed to be, as with the other yogas, thinking about attaining the goal of Hinduism.
Don't quote me yet, I have to get out my philosophy books and check. But that's what I remember.
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2003 : 07:30:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
Isn't there a guy in India who debunks mystical c**p, kinda like our James Randi?
Yes, B. Premanand of Indian Skeptic magazine. The rules for his 100,000 rupee challenge can be found here. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2003 : 09:28:59 [Permalink]
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Thanks Walt, i like this abode :)
Snake, Buddha was a Hindu that is true but he didn't answer the question of God's existence in order to not harm a devotee. He applied the doctrine of ahimsa (non-violence) even in this respect. THis is why many think Buddhism is atheist which again is true to some extent - the subsequent religion became atheist. However, while buddhists claim atheism, they still hold to the doctrine of reincarnation.
Hinduism has several different systems of philosophy, chief amoung them Vedanta and Samkya. I am not too sure about this but i think that Vedanta believes in a monotheistic God and Samkya believes in a finite God. Since this seems to be the case, i think it is appropriate to conclude that Hinduism is not monotheistic in any tradional sense (it is certainly polytheistic anyway!). This doesn't mean that HInduism is atheist but i think it means that God isn't considered omnipotent i.e there could be no real One true God.
The Hindus don't seem to have one God, perhaps except for Brahman which seems to be impersonal. It is hard to say, but i think that Krishna is generally considered as God. As a rule, i don't subscribe to polytheism because i believe everyone is their own God.
I heard about an Indian man like James Randi who did particularly bad things for Sai Baba! Unfortunately the Indian officials have something to lose in exposing Baba because of money and poverty problems. I hope the Indians can someday reach a material level of prosperity without resorting to Guru worship in order to rake in the cash.
May we rest on our laurels and then die |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2003 : 09:53:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Avenel
The rules for his 100,000 rupee challenge can be found here.
100,000 rupees, huh? What is that, about $1.98?  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 08/25/2003 09:54:46 |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2003 : 10:02:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
quote:
Originally posted by Avenel
The rules for his 100,000 rupee challenge can be found here.
100,000 rupees, huh? What is that, about $1.98?
According to the Universal Currency Converter, $2,189.15 US, as of 2003.08.25 16:58:39 GMT. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2003 : 16:04:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Badman
Thanks Walt, i like this abode :)
Snake, Buddha was a Hindu that is true but he didn't answer the question of God's existence in order to not harm a devotee. He applied the doctrine of ahimsa (non-violence) even in this respect. THis is why many think Buddhism is atheist which again is true to some extent - the subsequent religion became atheist. However, while buddhists claim atheism, they still hold to the doctrine of reincarnation.
Hi Bad,
Not sure what you mean by "subequent religion became atheist". From what I know, it always was. God is not explained and no god is relied on or prayed to. LOL, it's kind of like...You are on your own. What you put in (to your life) you get out. Theres's no god to help or support you. Never was.
What does reincarnation have to do with it? That doesn't make something atheistist or not.
quote:
The Hindus don't seem to have one God, perhaps except for Brahman which seems to be impersonal. It is hard to say, but i think that Krishna is generally considered as God. As a rule, i don't subscribe to polytheism because i believe everyone is their own God.
Although I don't know much about the Hindus I think they do worship a god or many gods, doesn't matter it's still theist.
 BTW, when I talk to xians and they start in with god and everlasting peace and where did we come from, etc., I ask them, why is it important where we came from or who created us. We are here now. I believe that's what the Buddha would have said. |
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 05:52:58 [Permalink]
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Snake, you are right about Buddhism - it has always been atheist. I didn't word my sentence very well...
Reincarnation is a part of Buddhism and that is how i find it odd that it can be called atheist because it is a supernatural event (i think). Still, a God isn't neccesary. The xians amaze me at how shallow they can be in their thinking. There is so much about xianity which just doesn't hold water. The way i see it is that experience is in the middle: if God is outside of this then we can't know it. So it is irrelevant to question existence prior to birth and after death. If immortality can be had, it cannot be had so long as a person has a body. I do not believe in Nirvana. |
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mr. who
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 12:56:42 [Permalink]
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| I believe in Nirvana which is enlightened utforic state where your spirit and your mind become one with universe and god and you experience complete love and joy which i have experienced a few times especially during sex! |
Mr. Blue |
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