|
|
|
|
Bill Burke
New Member
13 Posts |
 Posted - 09/02/2003 : 08:27:01
|
When my pet rock looks at me it seems to be totally unaware that I perceive him as being inanimate and unthinking, and I don't think it's going too far beyond the evidence to suggest that the rock may not even perceive my presence.
Analogously what might there be in our own presence that we do not perceive and that may be at the next higher rung above animation and thought?
No metaphysical believers need reply here. :-) Thank you.
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2003 : 09:34:34 [Permalink]
|
Clearly, the "next higher rung" is God. Then of course God has a GOD in the next higher rung. And of course GOD has a GOD in the next higher rung....
You can replace god with extra dimensional being; or whatever.
Sometimes, I think that old Monty Python song (I think it is Monty Python song) sung to the tune of "You are a child of the universe" or something was right on the money:
You are a fluke of the universe,
And the whole universe,
Is laughing at you behind your back.
We can think and analyze and come up with some of the weirdest crap.
|
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
 |
|
|
walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2003 : 09:58:38 [Permalink]
|
Hi Bill Burke! Welcome to the SFN! 
I don't think that there currently exists anything that fulfills the analogy, i.e., there is nothing that is to person as person is to rock. However, as the evolution of our form of life continues, there may someday be such a being. I've often wondered what we would be in a billion or 50 billion years. Maybe by then we will reach a level of developement that could be said to be as far beyond us as we are beyond a rock. Pure speculation, no doubt! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
|
|
|
Bill Burke
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2003 : 10:49:57 [Permalink]
|
Walt - but if something did exist, you couldn't know it, could you, any more than my rock can know I exist?
So if something did exist, what do you imagine it would be like? For example, what do you imagine would be the next rung above thinking? |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2003 : 12:36:11 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Burke
When my pet rock looks at me it seems to be totally unaware that I perceive him as being inanimate and unthinking, and I don't think it's going too far beyond the evidence to suggest that the rock may not even perceive my presence.
Analogously what might there be in our own presence that we do not perceive and that may be at the next higher rung above animation and thought?
No metaphysical believers need reply here. :-) Thank you.
Your question presumes that the stone is sentient in some whay, and able to percieve something...
But what do I care of a stone? I don't give a shit about it, and suck it up with a vacuum cleaner, throws it away and quickly forget about it. By the same reasoning, it is obvious that whatever higher being there is, It has already done the same to us. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 17:10:01 [Permalink]
|
| Paper of course. When did you first notice yer pet rock watching you? The next "higher rung," IMO, would be "intelligent life." Welcome aboard, BB. |
 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 18:08:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
You are a fluke of the universe,
And the whole universe,
Is laughing at you behind your back.
Y'know, this would make a kick-ass signature for somebody.
Hi Bill, and welcome!
Well hell, it's a big, funky, old universe. Perhaps the answer is out there somewhere, but I doubt I'll ever discover it.
Say 'Hey' to your rock for me.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 14:34:42 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Burke
So if something did exist, what do you imagine it would be like? For example, what do you imagine would be the next rung above thinking?
Actually, I've often wondered about this myself, but I've never really come up with a satisfactory answer. If we can't know about it, whatever it may be, then it would have to be something that doesn't exist in the same way that other things exist. It can't be made of matter and energy, nor would it be subject to the four forces of which we are aware. Perhaps it wouldn't be subject to any of the laws of space-time. Because if it were anything like all the other things we know about, we would be able to detect it, wouldn't we?
If there are other universes that we can't detect, or other dimensions where something like that could exist, then maybe there could be something in one or more of them that would satisfy the analogy, but I expect that, sooner or later, we would be advanced enough to discover it. There is, of course, no hope of rocks ever doing that! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2003 : 12:31:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Burke
When my pet rock looks at me it seems to be totally unaware that I perceive him as being inanimate and unthinking, and I don't think it's going too far beyond the evidence to suggest that the rock may not even perceive my presence.
It seems to be generally believed by (human) physiologists and brain-surgeons that thinking is done through the function of electron-movement. Electrons, busy wee people that they are, move quite a bit even in your seemingly inanimate pet-rock. The real question is not whether 'thinking' (movement of electrons) takes place in your rock but whether or not that 'thinking' is sufficiently organized to merit use of the word.
As to whether it is 'aware' of you: Of course it is, at least in an electro-mechanical sense. Moving electrons generate magnetic fields. So long as you and your pet-rock are close enough, the rock MUST notice your existence (--since your generated magnetic fields will effect the electron movement in the rock). 
Once again, of course, whether your rock's structure recognizes your sentience (--as contrasted to, say, a fellow rock rolling gently to and fro against it in the surf--) is a whole different question.
quote:
Bill Burke's original post continues:
Analogously what might there be in our own presence that we do not perceive and that may be at the next higher rung above animation and thought?
Yes, of course there is----and, sure enough, you know it but don't recognize it. What is in our own presence and is 'higher' than we humans----that seems to control our activities, even our individual existence? How about "Human Society"? Next, higher, up the line: How about a social mixture of humans and non-humans (--as in an old-style family farm). Even higher: The local ecology in which we all (--to include, say, our farm--) exist. Etc.
quote:
More from Bill Burke:
No metaphysical believers need reply here. :-) Thank you.
Err. What is a "metaphysical believer"? I hope that I haven't qualified with this post. 
(Edited quickly to patch up some minor irregularities.  ) |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 09/22/2003 12:37:28 |
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
