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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2003 : 21:33:02
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I was deeply disappointed when I got word last week that Rush Limbough, had resigned(a.k.a fired) from ESPN's Sunday NFL Countdown.
For illuding to the fact that MAYBE Donovan McNabb of the Philidalphia Eagles,is a bit overrated because the media wanted to see a black quarterback do well in the NFL. People arre making him out to be some racist pig because he said these things. Even though his negative comments were directed at the media, NOT Donovan McNabb.
To be honest I have no idea if he's overrated or not. But it's certainly not immpossible. Even if it's not, there is no way Limbough should have been forced to resign. He has every right to voice his opinion. Even if you personally disagree with it. It was not in any way a racist comment. It was only pointing out one option for why his QB rating until last week was, DEAD LAST in the NFL. Boy for a country that takes pride in there freedom of speech, theres sure alot of thing we can't say.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2003 : 21:54:13 [Permalink]
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It's wonderful how so many people have a strange and twisted view of what the 1st Amendment means. You and Rush have the freedom to say whatever you want. Nobody, however, is obligated to give you a soapbox from which to say it. Rush is not being denied his right to speak by resigning, nor would he have been denied a right to share his opinions had he actually been fired. ESPN isn't obligated to let him say whatever he wants to say, nor is ESPN equivalent to the Federal government, which is primarily the body that the 1st Amendment protects us from.
Rush can say whatever he wants to say about any players he cares to name. ESPN doesn't have to give him air time in which to say it, however. If it were otherwise, newspapers would consist of one page of news, and 99 pages of letters to the editors.
I guess we can now add "learning the Constitution" to "learning about evolution" to your "to-do" list. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2003 : 22:23:14 [Permalink]
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Face it, any man who's too bigoted, insensitive, and lunkheaded for sports programmers and fans has got to be too off-the-wall for even gulag-style re-education.
And please, c'88, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and work on that spelling. As a newly enlightened compassionate conservative, I'm only telling you this for your own good, because I'm such a wonderful person.
I find it ironic that anyone would be so quick to support Mr. Limbaugh's supposed right to spout, when freethinkers' views are blacked out of the public forum by our supposedly liberal media. Hey, I've got opinions, too. Where's my airtime? |
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 02:28:55 [Permalink]
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Creation, now you're venturing into my favorite pass time, (even though my Saints might be the worst team in the league). Let me update you on something. quote:
"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well,'' Limbaugh said. "There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."
Now, let's not forget that Rush reported that he actually considered this statement the night before he blurted it out on ESPN's NFL Sunday Countdown. If you will consider the statement, Rush's opinion is about "social concern in the NFL." The idea that the media wants a black quarterback to do well is stated as fact with the example of McNabb used as evidence in support of his assertion.
Here, I will agree that the general media has an interest in reporting on the ascension of black coaches in the NFL, but that is probably due to the reality that there are millions of people in this country that are also interested in this subject. If they were not, the market would dictate that this issue drop quickly.
Here's the real problem. Other than Rush and a few of his far right or left commentators, you would be hard pressed to find any media, sports or otherwise, interested in promoting black quarterbacks. The reason is simple. Black starting quarterbacks are common at all levels of football, and have proven their ability at this position long ago. To be honest, most coaches would be happy to have an all pro, young QB like McNabb as their starter. He is, by consensus of all those football fans, coaches and sports writers one of the top ten or fifteen QB's in the league. Some rank him in the top five.
These are not the days when someone like Doug Williams had to prove himself as the leader of the Redskins,(and he led them to the Super Bowl). Those days are long gone. These are the days of Vick, McNair, Culpepper, Brooks, Carter, Stewart, Blake, Leftwich and McNabb. And, that's just the starting QB's that just happen to be black men.
Sports fans, and sports media don't care about the color of someone's skin--They care about winners.
Do some people make stupid comments that come off as sounding racially motivated? Of course! Rush proves that fact. He was unable to show how the "media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well." Using McNabb as an example only shows his lack of understanding of the game. The madia promoted McNabb because he is the field general of a team that went to the NFC championship game, though they lost to the ultimate Super Bowl champions. He averages about 3000 yards per year passing, and about 500 yards per year rushing. He throws about twice as many balls for touchdowns as he does interceprtions, and until this year has averaged a plus 80 QB rating. Oh, and let's not forget that he was voted into a couple of Pro Bowls. Someone ought to tell Rush that McNabb's a pretty damned good QB.
And, if the media is promoting black quarterbacks, Rush is about the only one outside the KKK that sees it. Of course, he will never admit he is wrong, and we have about as much chance of seeing him prove his point as we have of seeing him in a real debate with a real nationally known liberal.
My opinion is that Rush is either stupid, or a latent racist. Unfortunately, I don't have a national soap box to air my unsubstantiated opinions.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 04:08:04 [Permalink]
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| Well then start your own TV station or radio station and say whatever you like on it. ESPN enjoy freedom of speech, which means they can choose what to express and not to express. If this means they don't want Rush Limbaugh there, and quite frankly who does, then they can fire him. Freedom of speech is NOT the right to force others to make yourself heard. It is the right for you to speak. I have the right not to listen. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 05:55:13 [Permalink]
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Hey, C88 I find it interesting how the fundamental Christians can always overlook an incredible amount of dirty laundry when it comes to a conservative that is in the spotlight (I guess it comes from practice - like ignoring all of the facts about evolution). So with that thought in mind, we can rest assured that you think Clinton was the devil incarnate because of his immorality with women, but does this outrage extend to the conservative Arnold and his army of groped women. I am guessing that somehow Arnold is OK. Am I right or am I right?
PS. I do think Rush is a racist pig. Course Clinton was morally bankrupt, a good president, but morally a slim-bag. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 06:06:42 [Permalink]
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C88, please, please read these links:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/leonard_pitts/6920452.htm
(In fact, please read Leonard Pitts regularly. He's a wonderful, compassionate writer and one of the few people I really listen to on the subject of race.)
Further, if you don't believe that Rush is a racist, read this:
http://www.fair.org/articles/limbaugh-color.html
If asking a caller to 'remove the bone' from his nose isn't racist, then what IS?
To use the First Amendment as an excuse for racism, as many conservatives do, is childish and disingenous. The racism of some of today's conservatives seems stealthy and often hidden under what appear to be psychological denial mechanisms. ("I'm not racist; I just don't understand why black people ________" as an example.)
You see, Rush could've discussed McNabb's under-performance or overrating without mentioning his race. Plenty of athletes are overrated for reasons unrelated to race.
Maybe the white conservative overweight guys who are defending Rush simply want an overrated white conservative overweight guy to do well. |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 06:58:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
...we can rest assured that you think Clinton was the devil incarnate because of his immorality with women, but does this outrage extend to the conservative Arnold and his army of groped women...
Here we see the essential difference between liberal and conservative philanderers. The liberals are into consenting adults, while the conservatives like to harass people who simply don't wish to bothered.
Hmm, "army of groped women," I kind of like the sound of that. Sounds like a old Roger Corman flick. |
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
| Edited by - Bradley on 10/13/2003 16:00:50 |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 23:09:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hey, C88 I find it interesting how the fundamental Christians can always overlook an incredible amount of dirty laundry when it comes to a conservative that is in the spotlight (I guess it comes from practice - like ignoring all of the facts about evolution). So with that thought in mind, we can rest assured that you think Clinton was the devil incarnate because of his immorality with women, but does this outrage extend to the conservative Arnold and his army of groped women. I am guessing that somehow Arnold is OK. Am I right or am I right?
PS. I do think Rush is a racist pig. Course Clinton was morally bankrupt, a good president, but morally a slim-bag.
I am not overlooking "dirty laundry" as you put it. I would say the exact same thing if Steve Young, Tom Jackson, or any of the other people on NFL Countdown, were in the same situation.
? quote:
I am guessing that somehow Arnold is OK. Am I right or am I right
I'll take the third option Alex. What is WRONG!!!! I do not in anyway support Arnold's groping and do not think in anyway that it is ok.
As for Clinton being a moral slim-bag. You would have to be blind, deaf and a little on the slow side not to see that. As for him being a good president. That's a matter of opinion.
And to all those saying ESPN has the right to stop him if they don't want him to say that on there network. That woulod be true if it was Chris Berman who said it being the host of the show. But what was Rush hired for???? TO GIVE HIS OPINION!!!!! He was doing his job. If someone picked the Chargers to beat the Bucs, you might disagree with them, but thats just his opinion.
And Dave can cut the stupidity of talking to me like I'm two years old. I have an opinion. Regard it as my opinion instead of something that is lesser than your opinion.
And I have to throw this in....RED SOX GOIN ON TO THE ALCS!!!!! GO SOX! haha
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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nukular
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2003 : 08:19:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
DEAD LAST in the NFL. Boy for a country that takes pride in there freedom of speech, theres sure alot of thing we can't say.
quote:
And Dave can cut the stupidity of talking to me like I'm two years old. I have an opinion. Regard it as my opinion instead of something that is lesser than your opinion.
While the tone of Dave's post could be construed as being slightly condescending, he has an extremely valid point to make; namely you should try and embrace a more accurate knowledge of the Constitution and what it means. Perhaps your orginal quote was leaning too much in the rhetorical usage of phrase "freedom of speech". While I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, I am afraid that the tone of the original post implies that you don't fully understand the meaning of "freedom of speech" as spelled out in the First Amendment.
Repeating Dave: The role of the clause "freedom of speech" (as with all Amendments found in the Bill of Rights) is to limit actions the Government can take; i.e. throw you in jail, fine you, etc for say vocalizing your opinions. It does not say anything about what newpapers, television stations, radio stations, or internet sites not controlled by the Federal government can do in the way of censoring ones opinions.
I would suggest that if you don't wish to be misintepreted or denounced as "two year old", that you should be a little tighter with your vocabulary and cut the rhetorical usage of well defined phrases (like "freedom of speech"). This will work to prevent misinterpretation and misrepresentation of your opinions.
Nonetheless, it seems clear to me that the onus is on you to present a clear (and factual) presentation of your opinions, rather than relying on rhetoric and then retorting that your opinions are not being addressed in a reasonable manner. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2003 : 11:01:19 [Permalink]
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Who's Rush Libough? Some French guy? Oh, yeah, that French guy on Hogan's Heroes!  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2003 : 13:59:10 [Permalink]
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I guess my biggest objection to Rush is that he's a motor-mouth. Here in the south, a ‘motor-mouth' is someone who has nothing to say, but jumps up and says it anyway.
Rush makes vast, unresearched claims on most any subject. He checks no facts, just spews out his diatribe.
Here's a couple of interesting sites about this, I got to admit, interesting man.
quote:
Rush Hudson Limbaugh III (born "/wiki/January_12", "/wiki/1951") is an "/wiki/USA" "/wiki/Political_conservative" "/wiki/Radio_programming" and "/wiki/Television" "/wiki/Talk_show" host whose shows are discussions primarily of politics from a conservative point of view. Limbaugh's commentary is intended to expose what he perceives as "/wiki/Liberal" fallacies and "/wiki/Bias", report news that is underreported elsewhere, and support conservative principles in an entertaining manner. He does not claim to give an unbiased view of the facts; rather, his shows are presented as conservative political commentary on the news, though much news is presented along with the commentary.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Limbaugh
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"Most of us here in the media are what I consider infotainers.... Rush Limbaugh is what I call a disinfotainer. He entertains by spreading disinformation."
--Al Franken at the White House Correspondents' Dinner (4/23/94)
"../media-outlets/limbaugh.html" has gotten a lot of mileage out of his claim that volcanoes do more harm to the ozone layer than human-produced chemicals. He featured it in his best-selling book, The Way Things Ought to Be (paperback edition pp. 155-157): "Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines spewed forth more than a thousand times the amount of ozone-depleting chemicals in one eruption than all the fluorocarbons manufactured by wicked, diabolical and insensitive corporations in history.... Mankind can't possibly equal the output of even one eruption from Pinatubo, much less 4 billion years' worth of them, so how can we destroy ozone?"
Limbaugh calls concern about the ozone layer: "balderdash. Poppycock." The only people who worry about it are ""../issues-news/environment.html" wackos," "dunderheaded alarmists and prophets of doom."
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/limbaugh-debates-reality.html
I found the, "Limbaugh Debates Reality" especally interesting, as it included some 'Rushisms' I hadn't heard before.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2003 : 18:44:22 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
And Dave can cut the stupidity of talking to me like I'm two years old.
I thought I spoke to you as if you were a 15-year-old who doesn't know what the 1st Amendment really means.quote:
I have an opinion. Regard it as my opinion instead of something that is lesser than your opinion.
I regarded it as the opinion of someone who seems to think that the freedom of speech we enjoy here in the U.S. is absolute and entire, and not, as in reality, limited and relative. And that it is limited is fact, not opinion. Try these experiments:
- Tell one of your high-school teachers that in your opinion, he/she deserves to be strung up, and then try out a freedom-of-speech argument with the principal.
- Verbally incite a riot, and see how far you get with a 1st Amendment defense.
- Make libelous statements about Rush Limbaugh on live TV, and see if he doesn't sue you.
You know, I cannot find a single report of Limbaugh himself defending his job on a Constitutional basis, which probably means he knows that this isn't a freedom of speech issue. In fact, it's kind of ironic that the only people I've found in my searches who are bringing up "freedom of speech" with regard to Rush are people who also state or imply that the ACLU is destroying this Great Nation (sometimes single-handedly).
By the way, contrary to the title of this thread, Rush Limbaugh has proven himself free to say things that'll get him fired, just like the rest of us (or "into legal trouble," for those here who are their own bosses). Given how long he's been in business, it's undoubtable that he knew precisely where the acceptable-vs.-not-acceptable line was drawn with ESPN and/or the media in general, and he decided to cross it. I'm sure others have already mentioned it somewhere, but to make nasty comments about "the media" while working for "the media" wasn't the wisest of moves.
And don't forget what Rush Limbaugh wrote:quote:
Why is it that whenever a corporation fires workers it is never speculated that the workers might have deserved it?
- The Way Things Ought to Be, p.275, as reported by FAIR, thanks to filthy
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 16:37:39 [Permalink]
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Think about this......if the same comments were said in the NBA, but not of a black quarterback, but of a white 'guard' would the sports media person have been fired?
Anyway as a quarterback,i think numbers speak for themselves. Race has no meaning....'can the person put up the numbers' that is all that matters. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 03:52:01 [Permalink]
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Except for some on-line research I did on Rush a few days ago, I pay little attention to him. As stated earlier, he's a motor-mouth, and thus what ever genuine facts he might put forth are shrouded in the verbal offal he surrounds them with. That's unfortunate. He has a real talent for what he does and the few times I've caught his act, I've found him at least easy to listen to.
One odd thing I've noticed, and the conservative fundies apparently have not, is that he seems to accept the old age of the earth and possibly the ToE as well. Does he indeed, or does he simply bring that up to make a point in his hyperbole, then to quickly pass by it?
Re: his drug problem. After my first spinal surgery, back in the '70s, I got hooked on VA supplied Percodan (Krusty the Klown and I are brothers in chemestry). Fortunatly, I caught it before it got too serious, but it was a very uncomfortable experience. "Better your pain than be caught by Co-dine." So, I can symphathize, at least to a point. However, reports have it that he was buying massive amounts of Oxycotin, if I've spelled that right, and other pain-killers. Those reports say he was doing as many as 90 or 100 a day. This, of course, cranked up the bells, whistles, and even the air-raid si-reen on my bullshit detector. That many goof-balls would land a rhinocerous in de-tox, if he survived long enough to get there!
So, as he has reportedly done some re-hab, but not yet not gone to de-tox, that we know of, and is apparently still alive and even mostly coherent, what does this tell us, if true?
It tells me that either he is dealing or partyin' hard with lots of friends. With his wealth, there is no need for him to take on the risks of dealing, so that leaves us with partying like Spuds McKenzie. But either way, this further tells me that he is a very foolish man. Again, if the reports have at least a kernel of truth to them.
Given the hysteria surrounding Rush, pro and con, and virtually all of it brought on by himself, I think we must take everything said about and by him with a wheelbarrow load of salt. The truth is there surely, but it is buried in "words and music, signifying nothing."
So, what is in the future for Rush? I think that his star will begin to decline, whether or not he beats the drug rap. I think that he will never enjoy any more success on TV than he already has (virtually none. His show some years ago was a bust, demonstrating that chronic toob vewiers are smarter than I'd thought). I further think that his radio show will gradually lose it's audience until only the truly rabid will tune him in. You cannot preach from high, moral authority when you yourself, lack morals and that lack becomes public. Not for long, anyway.
My bullshit detector has taken quite a beating, lately. I need to install new batteries before the '04 campaign gets serious.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 04:19:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Think about this......if the same comments were said in the NBA, but not of a black quarterback, but of a white 'guard' would the sports media person have been fired?
Fired? Probably not...Quietly encouraged to resign. Probably. Preference due to skin color is wrong regardless of the source or the target.
However, the parallels are not exactly the same. Reversing ethnicity roles are only helpful in establishing a racist agenda, (or lack of one), if each ethnicity shares a common degree, or similarity in the discrimination. Discrimination against white males is so rare in comparison to other types that it is often difficult to see the parallels. Plus, the only discrimination that exists today in the big three US sports is performance based, and that's what it's all about.
I always find this assumption of white vs. black when discussing racial problems amusing. We've put enough emphasis on this particular aspect of racism that we often tend overlook others. For instance, we sports fans, and the sports media have put so much emphasis on Tiger Wood's African ancestry that we've completely ignored his Asian heritage, (father - African, mother - Asian). It seems like the entire argument has come down to an "us vs. them" scenario that discriminates against anyone outside the narrow confines of petty jealousies.
Now, before anyone accuses me of comparing McNabb with Woods, I'm not. A far left or far right commentator would have a difficult time inferring that Tiger Woods, or the Williams sisters are overrated, or underrated. Their records are records of individual accomplishment that speak for themselves. The fact that Donovan McNabb plays a team sport, and plays in a position that recieves the brunt of the praise and the criticism leaves him wide open for such opinion despite his admirable record.
I think too many people , especially some media darlings like Rush, help to create the very multiculturalism they constantly harp on. This, of course, is a recipe for success if you target your audience wisely. It is exactly the same thing as the constant accusations of a Liberal Media without showing any real evidence of such an animal. The idea is to invent the monster so that you can be rewarded for bravely slaying the insidious beast. But, that is another topic. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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