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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
 Posted - 10/27/2003 : 10:42:00
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Anyone?
Not sure whether to put this in the Religion section or here...
There is a nice website called teh above dot Org which explains many "scientific" methods of life-force control. I refrain from using the URL because i'm trying to be anonymous...
Basically, the idea behind all this is that nervous energy can be controlled using will power whereby it is pulled inwards from the body's extremeties and directed to the brain, shutting off the five senses. The same thing happens, incidentally, when we fall asleep. Except in this case, somehow the mind controls the flow of this energy. There is some confusion regarding psychic phenomena and something called kundalini - it is not a straightforward systematic thing. We also have the psychic chakras.
Of interest perhaps is something called Kriya yoga. It is supposed to be a technique whereby enlightenment is attained rapidly. It involves making funny sounds with the breathing process. The proponents of this technique are basically cult-like, and they have you meditate for a year or thereabouts before giving you the Kriya proper. There are supposed to be good reasons for this - the body must be purified first otherwise the 'charge' of practising Kriya can burn out the body and may even cause death. However, i have found that Kriya Yoga is nothing more than an imaginative exercise that cannot possibly cause death. The Indian culture is such that religious symbols are rife and prevalent to the degree that all the people seem to be brainwashed into devotional behaviours. I could go on forever about all this but it spoils the fun of hearing the nice humours of others in web sites like this one.
To retrace. Pranayama, or life-force control, seems to me to be a psychic phenomena. And i for one, have a hard time seperating psychic stuff from religious stuff. For example, Jesus had telepathy. Still, my point is that this life force, or Chi, seems to invade all places and has a mystical significance which seems aloof from actual science. I do not refrain from saying this, but it also seems to me quite important to point out that most people in the world do not seem to want to give up the idea of a Creator that they can take comfort in. I was thinking today that there can only be two types of God. (1) An inherently Good God that has a plan, and (2) a dead God that created evil and good all at once (notice the schizophrenia). Anyway, apparently you do not need a God, you just need to do your pranayama...
It would thrill me to heaven to hear if any of you are aware of this PRANAYAMA. Especially Kriya Yoga. I feel it is time somebody debunked this tripe. And by the way, have any of you meditated and never experienced anything out of the ordinary? (unless you count imagination as un-ordinary...)
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/27/2003 : 13:47:18 [Permalink]
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OK.
Nervous energy can be controlled through willpower. Some people use meditation as a way to train their brain to relax and focus that nervous energy. Other people just use will power alone.
This has been used in several psychological treatments for hyperactivity that has no neurological basis including my own as a young lad. (I.E. the kid just normally bounces off the walls)
The human body is wired such that there is quite a bit of control that the mind can exert on the bodily functions. heartrate, breathing, and other physiological processes can be affected.
Any time that one hears claims that purification is necessary to prevent physical harm, one is dealing with a woo-woo cult. While there are nuggets of truth in the respective Yoga's, it's surrounded by an awful lot of BS.
You considering of the existance of God is a bit black and whitish. God is a religious construct for an unseen higher power. Theists believe that such a power exists. Atheists lack a belief in this concept.
Here are the basic ideas on a supreme being
1) Exists. But unsure of the form
2) Doesn't exist. No empirical evidence for such a thing
3) Doesn't exist. I'm punishing Him. (aka Fake atheism)
4) Exists. Judeo-Christian active in the details
5) Exists. Deist hands-off God who judges mankind after death
6) Exists. Provides inspiration and aid to change within
7) Doesn't exist. What's a God? Why is that important?
Who's right? No one knows. There is a complete lack of empirical evidence to prove the existance of such a being and proving a negative is impossible. One can show that the chances of a God actually existing is extremely unlikely. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 16:30:51 [Permalink]
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I meditate and do yoga occassionally. I have no spiritual intentions in doing so; in fact, I have few spiritual intentions, period.
Like Valiant Dancer said, this helps me relieve stress and anxiety. I also think more clearly and can concentrate better.
But no, I've experienced nothing out-of-the-ordinary during or after meditation or yoga. I don't feel closer to God, or more in tune with nature. Nor do I feel PRANAYAMA, whatever the heck that is. |
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 04:03:39 [Permalink]
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Excellent post Valiant Dancer. I think my little rant about God was just where my thinking has taken me recently (not very far admittedly). The debate continues.
Pranayama is prana (life force) and yama (control). It is also a mixed word that connotes the breathing process.
My main concern in starting this thread was to look at the Kriya yoga, the cult tosh, and the psychic phenomena. I have no idea how the idea of Chakras has emerged in New Age circles in the West without their taking from the Hindus. I think it is safe to say that when people are brought up in a religious atmosphere such as the one in India, they believe quite strongly in the symbolism and stories to the extent that they may have visions which they believe to be true spiritual experiences but are nothing more than physiological changes which produce images from the unconscious mind. But what i also wanted to try to understand was how the spiritual people get away with saying that imagination plays a key role in meditative practice. To my mind, you cannot get to the truth through the imaginative faculty while doing meditation. For example, i do not get how imagining yourself floating in a white cloud could possibly bring about an intuitive, spiritual experience. It just seems like nonsense to me. It might be all right for pussycats and faint-hearted people, but for me it doesn't do anything.
I am not condemning meditation as i think it has some practical usage which is beneficial. What i am seeking to point out is that when a psychic thing is supposed to occur as a result of meditation, i think it is tripe. The idea behind pranayama is that you are supposed to be able to feel currents in the spine after practising meditation and healthy living for a while, and then able to manipulate these currents to achieve enlightenment.
I am very sceptical of psychic things but i cannot disbelieve in them all as i have had precognitive dreams many times. I couldn't believe that i actually told someone this and they thought i was lying! Deja vu is real for me anyhow.
Just wanted to know if anybody out there had experience with meditation and life-force control and if they could shed any light on the psychic crap.
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 04:21:34 [Permalink]
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Excellent post Valiant Dancer. I think my little rant about God was just where my thinking has taken me recently (not very far admittedly). The debate continues.
Pranayama is prana (life force) and yama (control). It is also a mixed word that connotes the breathing process.
My main concern in starting this thread was to look at the Kriya yoga, the cult tosh, and the psychic phenomena. I have no idea how the idea of Chakras has emerged in New Age circles in the West without their taking from the Hindus. I think it is safe to say that when people are brought up in a religious atmosphere such as the one in India, they believe quite strongly in the symbolism and stories to the extent that they may have visions which they believe to be true spiritual experiences but are nothing more than physiological changes which produce images from the unconscious mind. But what i also wanted to try to understand was how the spiritual people get away with saying that imagination plays a key role in meditative practice. To my mind, you cannot get to the truth through the imaginative faculty while doing meditation. For example, i do not get how imagining yourself floating in a white cloud could possibly bring about an intuitive, spiritual experience. It just seems like nonsense to me. It might be all right for pussycats and faint-hearted people, but for me it doesn't do anything.
I am not condemning meditation as i think it has some practical usage which is beneficial. What i am seeking to point out is that when a psychic thing is supposed to occur as a result of meditation, i think it is tripe. The idea behind pranayama is that you are supposed to be able to feel currents in the spine after practising meditation and healthy living for a while, and then able to manipulate these currents to achieve enlightenment.
I am very sceptical of psychic things but i cannot disbelieve in them all as i have had precognitive dreams many times. I couldn't believe that i actually told someone this and they thought i was lying! Deja vu is real for me anyhow.
Just wanted to know if anybody out there had experience with meditation and life-force control and if they could shed any light on the psychic crap.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 07:24:42 [Permalink]
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I also have done meditation (Zen) and I find that it really helps my concentration. I am much less 'scatter brained' and I seem to be able to better control my anger. During the times that I was able to focus my concentration the best, I have had some visual distortion and odd feelings pop-up. From my understanding of Zen, the teachers say ignore these things as they are not real. Some people have reported having visons of Jesus, Saints or Buddahs talking to them during intense zazen effort. Invariably the master or leader will say ignore these hallucinations they do not mean anything. Generally, they feel that it is due to poor breathing and a lack of oxygen to the brain.
I know that Mohamad meditated in a cave for quite awhile before he had his vision of the angel and started the muslim religion. I have assumed after my experiences that this religion is basically founded on the hallucinations of someone who was very adebt at deep meditation.
As far as prophetic dreams, I do not buy into it at all. If you assume that we dream for a couple hours a night and dreams are basically a jumble of images and feelings then there is a huge 'library' of data choose from. It would be very easy to take many actual situations and associate them to one of the thousands of images or scenes that we dream. Another thing that happens is that if there is something that we are worrying about - such as a loved one in a war and they are killed - you can just about guarantee that you will have dreamed that they were going to be killed. That is obviously not prophetic, even though it my feel that it is.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 09:22:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Badman
Excellent post Valiant Dancer. I think my little rant about God was just where my thinking has taken me recently (not very far admittedly). The debate continues.
Pranayama is prana (life force) and yama (control). It is also a mixed word that connotes the breathing process.
My main concern in starting this thread was to look at the Kriya yoga, the cult tosh, and the psychic phenomena. I have no idea how the idea of Chakras has emerged in New Age circles in the West without their taking from the Hindus. I think it is safe to say that when people are brought up in a religious atmosphere such as the one in India, they believe quite strongly in the symbolism and stories to the extent that they may have visions which they believe to be true spiritual experiences but are nothing more than physiological changes which produce images from the unconscious mind. But what i also wanted to try to understand was how the spiritual people get away with saying that imagination plays a key role in meditative practice. To my mind, you cannot get to the truth through the imaginative faculty while doing meditation. For example, i do not get how imagining yourself floating in a white cloud could possibly bring about an intuitive, spiritual experience. It just seems like nonsense to me. It might be all right for pussycats and faint-hearted people, but for me it doesn't do anything.
I am not condemning meditation as i think it has some practical usage which is beneficial. What i am seeking to point out is that when a psychic thing is supposed to occur as a result of meditation, i think it is tripe. The idea behind pranayama is that you are supposed to be able to feel currents in the spine after practising meditation and healthy living for a while, and then able to manipulate these currents to achieve enlightenment.
I am very sceptical of psychic things but i cannot disbelieve in them all as i have had precognitive dreams many times. I couldn't believe that i actually told someone this and they thought i was lying! Deja vu is real for me anyhow.
Just wanted to know if anybody out there had experience with meditation and life-force control and if they could shed any light on the psychic crap.
I have not made up my mind on psychic events. There's still too many personal accounts of events that I don't fully understand.
Psychics, however, are another thing. Anyone who tells you they can do it on demand is selling something that you ought not to buy.
Deja-vu. Been there. Done that.
Vuja-de happens more often that that, though.
Vuja-de is the unsettling feeling that none of this has ever happened before.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 09:43:01 [Permalink]
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Furshur - Zen sounds interesting because of the stress placed on hallucinations etc. But it is the Hindus that grab my attention because of the purported beliefs in chakras and so on.
It is certainly strange that i find so many people sceptical about precognition. I have no doubt about this phenomenon as i have experienced it. It is only something that occurs in my dreams. for example, i dreamed that i was playing football and i saw someone i didn't recognise score a goal for my side. Some months later, i saw the exact same thing - i was playing football, had just met this person and as soon as the deja vu set in i thought, 'I've seen this before.' It was like watching a movie again. To someone close by to me i said, 'He is going to score now,' and he did! It was like watching my life unfold all over again. I understand that most dreams are a bundle of images, feelings, desires, etc etc but this precognition i cannot possibly deny. It has happened to me about over ten times in my life and i am still quite young. This is not my imagination, it is my experience.
I actually became incredibly interested in psychics just over a year ago and i spent all my credit card money on them in a short space of time, getting myself into incredible debt. I found out something quite astonishing. All of them told me something different and not one of them said anything which resonated with me personally. The kind of stuff they tell you is something you MIGHT be able to relate to but otherwise you would never have thought of yourself. You can tell the ones that are looking for money by their emotional sensitivity. If you jsut happen to ask the wrong question, or if you say that y ou are not getting anything they say, they become upset. Out of the hundreds of psychics i met, i would say that perhaps 2% said anything that was spot on. Also, when you meet the psychic in person, they check your body language closely. Rather like Derren Brown or Sherlock Holmes.
One more thing i would like to add which is probably a little controversial for a lot of people is this thing about coincidences. I think it is easy enough for most of us to look past coincidences as being a product of pure chance and laugh it off as nothing or perhaps afraid that if you acknowledge it you are going to be labelled insane. But i believe that they happen all the F**king time! You can call me paranoid if you want, but i bet that you have noticed at one time or another a 'weird' thing happen. However, i do not buy the idea that nothing happens by chance. That is going too far IMO.
I actually started my thread by debunking psychics but after reading what i just wrote it seems i am for them. I will say one thing that i simply do not believe in one bit. That is spells. This idea that witches can affect objective reality by casting a spell is to me the biggest load of shit i can imagine. That's for another day tho...
By all means, meditate - but jsut don't tell me you can cultivate psychic powers by doing it. Enough said. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 14:57:12 [Permalink]
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Badman wrote quote:
It is certainly strange that i find so many people sceptical about precognition. I have no doubt about this phenomenon as i have experienced it.
As a skeptic I need some sort of verifiable evidence supporting a phenomina before I can accept it. Precognition clearly does not fit the bill. I too have had the feeling of deja vu. That in and of itself means nothing. There are literally millions of little events that happen to us over the course of our lives and to say that many times that you have felt an association between an event and a dream is not surprising it is a statistical certainty.
One point on precognition - if that fellow you described was 'destined' to score that touchdown in exactly the way that you dreamed it, that would mean that it could not be changed and therefore you and I do not have free will. Now I suppose that may be a possibility and if it is that is fine. But I need some sort of evidence that this is the way that the universe is set-up. According to Quantum theory (and chaos theory for that matter) this is not possible. You cannot look at the state of a system and predict what the state of that system will be after a relatively (sort of arbitrary, I know) long time. In other words the weather man can give me a pretty good idea if it is going to rain tomorrow, but it is impossible for him to tell me today if it is going to rain on Thanksgiving. So for you to be able to predict exactly how an event (that touchdown) is going to happen must be impossible based on current scientific laws and theories. The only thing that could change my mind if there is some compelling evidence supporting your belief.
I am not closed minded. I have looked at chaos theory and quantum theory and the experimentation that indicates these are valid theories. If I was presented evidence and experimentation that proved (or even hinted) precognition I would embrace it. Simply because you feel like you had a precognative event is not nearly enough, we make far to many mistakes to depend on that.
I predict you will disagree with this post. That is still not enough evidence, though.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 20:43:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Badman
Chi
You seem....or that is, whoever you are talking about seems to be all over the place with this 'philosophy'.
Sounds something Ayn Randian like.
A mixture of several different thoughts (philosophies) packaged to agree with ideas that many people have. Or something like an astrology reading. "You are usually happy but sometimes feel sad"
Anyone who practices any form of Yoga is being religious. I don't remember learning anything about the Chi being connected to it though.
I have, over the years heard various explanations of the Chi, however I believe that the one my teacher taught me was correct.
It's worked well for me over these many, many years and has nothing to do with mystical powers.
It's redirecting reactions to things happening to or in the body using your mind. That's probably not a proper way or perhaps not an understandable definition but I assure you it's easy to learn and not weird or supernatural.
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Ok, now having read some of the other posts here, I'd like to add:
When I used to do meditations, (I'm not a Zen Buddhist....they are different and IMO somewhat weird, certainly not the true meaning of what the Buddha intended...... but who am I to say what he'd want?)
Anyway, as a Buddhist, one meditates to rid the mind of all distractions. Clearing the mind.
I've not experienced visions. LOL, only outside noise that I tried to block. It takes much concentration to meditate properly and reach nirvana. |
| Edited by - Snake on 10/28/2003 21:10:24 |
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2003 : 09:26:23 [Permalink]
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I don't know anything about Quantum theory or chaos theory really. I don't know if this makes a difference either (probably not) but i meant the English football, or soccer.
I agree with everything you say pretty much. Being able to prove what is in my mind might be for some machines of the future. I am very hesitant to discuss my precognition because i really want to debunk psychics. It is no consolation for me to say that i know precognition exists because i have direct first hand experience of it and it is not a question of belief for me. I should think trying to prove something like this is probably near enough impossible.
I mentioned the precognition as a side note. Also, it is not just in my dreams that it happens, sometimes it happens in some highly strange way when i am awake. It is like a memory of lots of different things jumbled together that makes a particular mood or feeling occur when the deja vu happens. It is not even important anyway. I can't see what proving this will do to change the world much. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2003 : 09:47:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
I mentioned the precognition as a side note. Also, it is not just in my dreams that it happens, sometimes it happens in some highly strange way when i am awake. It is like a memory of lots of different things jumbled together that makes a particular mood or feeling occur when the deja vu happens. It is not even important anyway. I can't see what proving this will do to change the world much.
Actually, proving precognition would fundementally change the way science understands the world. That would mean that cause and effect would no longer be applicable. At least not as we currently understand them. Because, if the future is set then nothing that happens in the future is really resulting in an effect, it is all set in stone so to speak. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2003 : 17:57:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
Actually, proving precognition would fundementally change the way science understands the world. That would mean that cause and effect would no longer be applicable. At least not as we currently understand them. Because, if the future is set then nothing that happens in the future is really resulting in an effect, it is all set in stone so to speak.
Perhaps it's a matter of degrees. Not the entire story of the world has been written. Maybe there are only certain kinds of precognitions. Little glimpses into the near future.
Just as we do know some things that will be in the future and we have control over them. Buying a train ticket and knowing we are going on a trip. One could imagine that there will be an accident. If it happens, we think we've precoged it.
But my answer to Badman then is, think about all the times you worried or wondered about something like that.
I belive it was in a program that Randi did or I might have seen another skeptic talk about it, but we only remember the times we thought of something and it did happen. So we think we knew that it was going to happen. You have to write down ALL the times you had a thought about something and then add up how many times the actually event took place. Then you will know you have The Power.
WOW! I just had a feeling I've written that before.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2003 : 07:23:34 [Permalink]
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I agree with point of your post. You said:
quote:
Perhaps it's a matter of degrees. Not the entire story of the world has been written. Maybe there are only certain kinds of precognitions. Little glimpses into the near future.
Our glimpses into the future are only guesses based on the normal everyday occurrances. I can for instance imagine what the sunrise tomorrow will look like. Maybe some frost on the ground, and some broken stratus clouds on the horizon with a red sky. I can even imagine the chill in the air, a slight breeze moving the aspen leaves and blue jays calling from the woods. If I visualize that and based on the current weather patterns I could see something that is almost exactly like that in the morning.
But I was refering to his example where he dreamed that he would meet someone he did not know and this person would then score a goal in exactly the way he dreamed it. If you looked at the dynamics of the system (his little corner of the world) you would see that it was inherently so chaotic and unstable that there is no possiblity that he could actually predict that. To use american football as an anology - even if you know what play the offence is going to be run, hell, even if the defense also knows which play is going to be run, there is no way to predict what is going to happen when the ball is centered. In fact if you ran the same play 10 times in a row you could still not predict what would happen on the 11 time. Unless it was the Buffalo Bills on offense, in that case I would assume a fumble and the defense would run it back for a score. Sorry, I am a little bitter. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2003 : 12:26:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
In fact if you ran the same play 10 times in a row you could still not predict what would happen on the 11 time. Unless it was the Buffalo Bills on offense, in that case I would assume a fumble and the defense would run it back for a score. Sorry, I am a little bitter.
Excuse me! Bitter about what?
Ok, sure, one can't know exactly what's going to happen frame by frame in real life. And a dream or vision might seem extordinairy. But again, when one has this dream and after, in the 'real' world, are they remembering the dream ('word for word') or are they fitting pieces into it after the fact? Dreams might seem percise but in mine, the few I have that I remember, they are only over all visions. If one were to 'come true', I think I'd be adding to it from seeing the real situation.
In other words, the coincidence of the real life situation seeming like the dream is not really a miror image. The dream is general and we put add into it what we've seen later. So we think the dream predicted the future but we were only thinking that through hind sight. And again, count the times dreams really 'came true'. How many don't? Could it be that the ones we remember that really happen are only coincidences? Dreaming enough dreams and finally one coming true is the law of averages!
Damn I wish I could spell better and think better of the right words to use to explain. Hope you understand what I mean.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2003 : 06:24:17 [Permalink]
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Snake,
I am bitter about the dismal Buffalo Bills. Just a bit off topic, I suppose. I understood your post and agree with what you said. At a class I once attended the instructor said, "the ability to spell is inversely proportional to ones intelligence". This is one belief that I choose to accept without proof. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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