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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
 Posted - 11/14/2003 : 07:16:42
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That was a question I was asked last night.
I tried to respond with the old reflex reaction, but it didn't hold water with my mate!
Attempting to explain this to a 'believer' was without doubt the hardest thing I've attempted in years. Two hours later and we were still discussing it. When I attempted to explain that simply not believing in ghosts/ghoulies wouldn't negate the reflex action of flinching, he insisted that deep, deep, deeeep, down I believed.
I posit that the believers insist that we all (to some extent) believe, solely because they don't want to appear stupid or alone.
Incidentally, he insisted that he wasn't a believer, just that there must be something in it for so many people to believe! Pass me another can of worms, please!
Guys, my interest in this site and the knowledge that I've gained has spurred me on to further education. I start my science degree on Jan 31st 2004! Thanks!!
This is a quick post and has not been checked for format or errors, I apologise in advance.
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"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 08:16:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Guys, my interest in this site and the knowledge that I've gained has spurred me on to further education. I start my science degree on Jan 31st 2004! Thanks!!
Go for it, WD!
The 'jump' reflex predates our species by, hell, I dunno, a very long time. It is strictly a survival mechanism -- the suprised creature doesn't need to know if the intruder is dangerous, just that it's there unexpectedly. Far better to 'jump' unesessarly, than not 'jump' when a predator shows up on the blind side. We still have the reminants of it, seen especally in combat veterans, many of whom are pretty skittish, and for good reason.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 08:45:44 [Permalink]
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| Wow! I don't get why the "jump" reflex - which is very different in different people - has anything to do with ghosts. That's interesting. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 11:00:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by welshdean
Attempting to explain this to a 'believer' was without doubt the hardest thing I've attempted in years. Two hours later and we were still discussing it.
Dean, 1st off, I like that flag of your logo.
Next, why try....to explain? If someone doesn't get it right away, what's the point of getting frustrated?
quote:
When I attempted to explain that simply not believing in ghosts/ghoulies wouldn't negate the reflex action of flinching, he insisted that deep, deep, deeeep, down I believed.
Isn't that just enough to piss one off??? I think when someone says that they, just want a reaction out of you. So they can go on arguing.
quote:
I posit that the believers insist that we all (to some extent) believe, solely because they don't want to appear stupid or alone.
That's what I've always thought too.
quote:
Incidentally, he insisted that he wasn't a believer, just that there must be something in it for so many people to believe! Pass me another can of worms, please!
LOL.
quote:
Guys, my interest in this site and the knowledge that I've gained has spurred me on to further education. I start my science degree on Jan 31st 2004! Thanks!!
Good going.
quote:
This is a quick post and has not been checked for format or errors, I apologise in advance.
You don't have to apoligise to me, I wouldn't know if there were any errors anyway. Can't spell, don't care.
(Don't you think, it's the essance of what's said, rather than the technical?)
ps. this post.....not checked for errors either. There Dean, feel better. |
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 13:22:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by welshdean
Incidentally, he insisted that he wasn't a believer, just that there must be something in it for so many people to believe! Pass me another can of worms, please!
It reminds me of my grand mother; she's 84 and has always been "different" form most other grand mothers I know. She worked most of her life, only had two kids, etc... She's not a skeptic, but she never really took to dogma. Smart lady! Her two kids are both atheists and none of her grand-children are baptised.
However, she still goes to church from time to time. I once asked her "Aren't you supposed to go to church every sunday? I mean, you know, if you want to go to Heaven and such?". I dont remember her exact words, but it was something like "Well yeah, if you believe in those things to the extreme". I then asked "But then why go at all? Is it just in case case you DO meet your maker when you die?" to which she answered (and blushed) "Well, imagine dying and the first guy you meet is St-Peter, disapprovingly shaking his head... That would be very embarassing, no?".
In short, she still goes to church out of habit and "just in case". No one wants to look like a fool.
I've met a lot of people who beleive in ghosts (and such things) "just a little, just in case". When most people around you beleive in the occult, even just a little, it takes a lot courage to say "screw that, I dont beleive in it at all". It took me a long while to "come out" and say clearly to my friends that I was a skeptic. Some still resent me for that. There is A LOT of social presure surrounding beleif in the occult (or whatever). The more beleivers, the more pressure.
So, to your friend I would say "Beleive what you want, I made my choice and I stand by it, even if it means I might look stupid at some point in the future, although I seriously doubt it. I'm not saying this to make you feel stupid, I just dont have the "blind faith" gene/brain virus". It sounds a bit loaded, but it might spark something in him...
Sorry for the weird sounding english
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Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 13:36:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Maglev
The more beleivers, the more pressure.
That's exactly the point too.
The pressure actually comes afterwards. It's the mentality of the 'group'. It doesn't want to be 'wrong', that's why they have to convince everyone else to be a part of it.
As an after thought, think of what would happen if the Catholic church was proved wrong and had to give back all that money for decieving people. They have to keep up the farce. And maintain followers. |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 17:47:03 [Permalink]
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I tried the 'instinct' way, but couldn't put it as succinct as this..
quote:
Originally posted by: Filthy
Far better to 'jump' unesessarly, than not 'jump' when a predator shows up on the blind side.
Then Gorgo said:
quote:
Wow! I don't get why the "jump" reflex - which is very different in different people - has anything to do with ghosts. That's interesting.
Okay... for "jump" reflex read.. flinch.
Snake followed with a number of points;
firstly....
quote:
Next, why try....to explain? If someone doesn't get it right away, what's the point of getting frustrated?
I am sorry Snake, but I pride myself on absolutely NOT, getting frustrated. But I'm probably being pedantic right now!
Then....
quote:
Isn't that just enough to piss one off??? I think when someone says that they, just want a reaction out of you. So they can go on arguing.
I actually wait for them to say it, so I can keep on arguing...lol
And then Snake added....
quote:
Don't you think, it's the essance of what's said, rather than the technical?
NO, NO and thrice NO! You beat yourself up on this! I don't mean that I may have made gross punctuation mistakes or used excessively bad grammar, simply that I'd not spell checked it. For some reason (now I've had time to dwell on the matter) it appears that only fundies have extreme difficulty in constructing a legible sentence. (If fundies take umbrage to that last statement, I apologise...... but I can back it up!
Maglev, your English (as a second language - I assume) is excellent.
My Grandmother, went through her 'final lap' as an avid believer in Catholicism. I never quite understood and assumed she was simply cramming for her finals!!!
With regard to the 'courage' aspect of your post, I could hardly agree more.
And, almost as an aside to the penultimate point in Maglev's post..
quote:
So, to your friend I would say "Beleive what you want, I made my choice and I stand by it, even if it means I might look stupid at some point in the future, although I seriously doubt it. I'm not saying this to make you feel stupid, I just dont have the "blind faith" gene/brain virus". It sounds a bit loaded, but it might spark something in him...
Speaking from experience, this usually sounds inflammatory to the believers!
Lastly, thanks to all that have offered encouragement.. and Snake, the flag is MY National Flag, The National Flag of Wales! |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 19:14:44 [Permalink]
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| errrr...jump at what? Am i missing something here? |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 02:44:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
errrr...jump at what? Am i missing something here?
Indeed...
Did Welshdean and his friend see a ghost, or did they go to a fun-fair's haunted house, or did they watch a scary movie?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 16:16:30 [Permalink]
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I didn't think the 'why' was important, but if you wanna know;
10pm electricity suddenly goes. Im on his landing, making my way toward the stairs. My pal sneaked up on me in the PITCH BLACK and grabbed both my ears. I had no idea what was going on, and jerked my head away. My mate laughed and said I was scared of the dark, ghosts, things that go bump in the night, etc.
When he'd fixed the lights, we sat down, drank a few beers and I tried to explain that I wasn't afraid, I had no idea what was going on. It was a survival instinct. Nothing more, nothing less. The thought of it being a monster, ghoulie, freddy or whatever, simply hadn't occurred to me, let alone for me to be scared of it!
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"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 18:12:16 [Permalink]
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In that case I don't understand how your friend could link it to ghosts. Since the dawn of time, evolution have favoured those who instinctively have reacted to unidentified attacking things, whether it be a sneaky sabre-toothed tiger, or a rotten off falling branch, or a dislodged rock. That adrenaline chock is meant to result in three different responses: prepare the body for either 1)Fight, 2)Flee, or 3)Play dead.
Sudden changes in the environment means that something potentially dangerous is about to happen, which require vigilance. Scary movies relies on fictitious stories (including ghosts) as means to build up tension to be released by a sudden, unexpected event. It's not the ghost that scares people, it's the unexpected event.
A favourite example is when I was sitting in the movie theater watching "Apollo 13". At one point someone (I think it was Kevin Bacon) releases a pressure valve. A skittish girl jumps at the unexpected sound. It wasn't really a tense episode of the movie. But it started a chain reaction through the row of seats where the second and third person jumped at the first girl, and several others around her almost jumped but just sighed in relief when they realized that there was actually nothing to jump from. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 20:45:03 [Permalink]
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| Your friend is an idiot |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 08:11:19 [Permalink]
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I am a skeptic, and I was also born in Missouri.
It amounts to the same thing. Show me. Prove it to me.
I do not KNOW that there are no such things as ghosts, aliens, or Santa - but you have to prove it to me.
I am allowed to get the 'creeps' when I am alone in the woods at night (Damn that BLAIR WITCH movie) and I hear a twig snap or the leaves rustle. The point is when that happens and someone says "what was that?", I would say in all honesty, "dunno probably a racoon or something". I don't jump to the conclusion that it was an alien genetic experiment using Lee Harvey Oswald and the Lock Ness monster.
Being a skeptic means being SKEPTICAL. It does not mean that you have all of the answers and cling to your ideas. For instance there is no evidence that we have ever been visited by aliens. Therefore I don't buy any of the alien stuff. If some hard evidence came to light that indicated that we have been or are being visited by aliens I would change my mind to correspond with the facts. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 11:53:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
I am a skeptic, and I was also born in Missouri.
It amounts to the same thing. Show me. Prove it to me.
I do not KNOW that there are no such things as ghosts, aliens, or Santa - but you have to prove it to me.
I am allowed to get the 'creeps' when I am alone in the woods at night (Damn that BLAIR WITCH movie) and I hear a twig snap or the leaves rustle. The point is when that happens and someone says "what was that?", I would say in all honesty, "dunno probably a racoon or something". I don't jump to the conclusion that it was an alien genetic experiment using Lee Harvey Oswald and the Lock Ness monster.
Being a skeptic means being SKEPTICAL. It does not mean that you have all of the answers and cling to your ideas. For instance there is no evidence that we have ever been visited by aliens. Therefore I don't buy any of the alien stuff. If some hard evidence came to light that indicated that we have been or are being visited by aliens I would change my mind to correspond with the facts.
Subject your self to Blair Witch 2. It might solve some of the creeps you instinctively get from the unknown. BW2 managed to just piss me off with it's depiction of Wiccans. Wasn't the least bit scary and the gratuitous sex scenes weren't particularly provactative or entertaining. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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