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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 11/17/2003 : 20:34:03
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Some of you evolutionists must be able to tell me why Humans have apparently evolved to 'Love'. Love is the craziest of all emotions, it makes us do stupid irrational things.
For me obviously Love is a deeply religious thing, nothing really helps to reinforce the belief in the human spirit more.
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 21:40:06 [Permalink]
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I guess you could argue that 'love' evolved as a biological response to bond us to ensure the survival of the species. You do know that women produce a hormone called oxytocin during sex; this hormone increases their sense of bonding to their partner and is an intensely pleasurable hormone. Not that I'd know firsthand, of course. 
I'm not saying I believe that explanation. I don't think love needs a definition or an explanation. It's actually one of the few things I do believe in, though.
I know you'll be tempted to comment on the similarities between love and God, the inexplicable, the 'knowing without fact', etc. Which is fine...somebody else can talk with you about that. I'm off to bed.  |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 04:29:03 [Permalink]
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"Marriage is an institution and love is blind. Therefore, marriage is an institution for the blind." -- Mark Twain.
'Love' certainly has a survival value for a social species such as ourselves. Variations of it can be seen in the friendships formed by other primates for each other. Chimps especally form lifetime relationships within the troop. Baboons, as well. Among predators, Wolves and lions form these friendships. Also Cape hunting dogs and hyeneas. It has been observed in ceatians as well. These are not necessarly a sexual relationship; indeed, more often than not, they are entirely platonic.
This is really an interesting question. As can be readly deduced, these friendships help in holding the group together, uniting it particularly against against other groups of the same species that might intend to encrouch upon their territory. Parallels can readly be seen in us.
Loyalty and lifetime relationships are quite common among birds. Raptors and geese, and a great many seabirds are good examples.
I think my favorite example of 'love' is amomg the vampire bats of Central and South America (don't have the Latin handy and I'm too lazy to look it up. It's Desdemodia (sp?) something). These bats form solid, lifelong friendships within the colony. As their method of feeding is rather tricky, even dangerous for the bat, there is no guarentee that all will eat on any, given night. A bat that failed to feed will approach a friend and beg. The friend will regurgatate part of it's meal for it's hungry colony mate. Not just any bat in the colony will do this; only it's friends. And when the time comes, the bat will reciprocate.
Is this then, what we call, "love?" Sure, why not? If we could take it apart in the lab, we might find that it only slightly resembles the emotions we feel for spouse, family, friends, and so forth, but it's love never the less.
A difference is, of course, that the love relationships ships in animals don't make them entirely stupid. Only we are intelligent enough to get stupid, and only we live in a society where stupidity is not all that often fatal. Indeed, all too often, it's rewarded. 
As can be seen, there is a great, evolutionary advantage to love within a group. The group that is the most coheasive has the better chance of passing along it's genes to future generations.
So, did 'Love' evolve? Yeah, I'd say so. I suspect that it was around long before our ancient relitives began shambling about the earth.
Thanks for the question! It's all too seldom that such a good one comes along. I'm looking forward to other thoughts on the subject.
Edited: I really should quit trying to thing so early in the morning.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/18/2003 04:38:23 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 06:14:03 [Permalink]
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Define love, then ask the question. The idea of love is like the idea of god(s). The definition is kept very vague because it seems to some to be more beautiful that way. Define god(s) and the idea goes away. Define them, and you'll see that they're not so mystical.
"The Human Spirit" is another vague idea which doesn't have a very stationary meaning. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 11/18/2003 06:14:54 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 07:30:54 [Permalink]
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The stronger the attraction or love that you feel for your mate and your family the more likely it is that you will do anything to protect them. Love can easily be a result of natural selection.
Don't get me wrong, my love does not 'feel' like that. Love like other emotions is more visceral. I don't question why I love, I just enjoy it.
But clearly, love (as well as fear and hate) are great survival tools.
For God so loved the world that he wiped out 99.9999999999% of all living things by a flood and then sent the four horseman (death, famine...) to utterly destroy it, sending approximately 10 BILLION humans to hell to be tortured for all eternity.
Boy, think if he disliked the earth!!!! |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 08:22:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Some of you evolutionists must be able to tell me why Humans have apparently evolved to 'Love'. Love is the craziest of all emotions, it makes us do stupid irrational things.
For me obviously Love is a deeply religious thing, nothing really helps to reinforce the belief in the human spirit more.
What kind of the seven types of love are you referring to? Given your wording, I will assume romantic and parental love.
These types of love ensured that two individuals would stay together and protect one another and their offspring from dangers. Individuals which did this were more likely to have their offspring survive to mate and passed on the predisposition to these types of love.
Love is more advantageous from a survival standpoint than you think.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 11:20:03 [Permalink]
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While searching the net for a definition of love, i've found this;
http://www.stolaf.edu/depts/philosophy/reed/2001/love.html
It's a philosophical essay comparing Plato's definition of love to that of Sartre.
quote:
Through Socrates, Plato characterizes love as a desire to partake in the beautiful for the purpose of gaining happiness. Sartre states that love is an engagement in an impossible project. Plato, while agreeing that the task is not easy, feels quite differently that love is attainable. This paper seeks to find they areas where the two philosophies overlap [...]
Interesting read!
Edit: Oh no!!!! This is my 13th post! Aaaaaargh! |
Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
| Edited by - Maglev on 11/18/2003 11:21:18 |
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PruplePanther
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 12:58:32 [Permalink]
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Why only talk about love as a human thing? How often have u heard about a dog pining to death after its human died or even went away? Died of a broken-heart maybe. Lots of species pair off for life. with no 50% divorce rate. lots of times when one of the pair dies the other pines away and dies too. LOVE. The world is full of love.  And hate too i suppose.  |
"If I don't know where we are, I can't plot a course home." Major Carter, SG-1 |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 21:51:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Some of you evolutionists must be able to tell me why Humans have apparently evolved to 'Love'. Love is the craziest of all emotions, it makes us do stupid irrational things.
For me obviously Love is a deeply religious thing, nothing really helps to reinforce the belief in the human spirit more.
I don't believe in love. It's phony emotion.
It is different in different cultures. In other words, depends what you mean. Or to quote a famous president.....what is, is?
You can like someone, or be interested in them for various reasons or care about someone but 'love'. What is it? We are all 'on our own.' It means whatever you want it to. Like looking at a painting or other art work. You bring to it your own expierences which might not be the same as anothers or the one you think you 'love'.
I bet each answer here will be a different view too. I'll go read and see.
But why does anyone need to know? Why can't one have his own idea that doesn't have to be connected to anyone else? I don't think any two or three (or who ever) people will agree exactly as to what it means to himself personaly.
Snake
ps. boy, I've been wanting to post to this folder since it 1st appeared but there's a problem with SFN and I can't use my new (other) name. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 21:58:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I guess you could argue that 'love' evolved as a biological response
Don't understand why it is biological. It's emotional, isn't it?
Or I guess it's like being angry and wanting to beat up someone. A physical response to an emotion???
Snake |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 22:05:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I think my favorite example of 'love' is amomg the vampire bats of Central and South America (don't have the Latin handy and I'm too lazy to look it up. It's Desdemodia (sp?) something). These bats form solid, lifelong friendships within the colony. As their method of feeding is rather tricky, even dangerous for the bat, there is no guarentee that all will eat on any, given night. A bat that failed to feed will approach a friend and beg. The friend will regurgatate part of it's meal for it's hungry colony mate. Not just any bat in the colony will do this; only it's friends. And when the time comes, the bat will reciprocate.
Is this then, what we call, "love?" Sure, why not? If we could take it apart in the lab, we might find that it only slightly resembles the emotions we feel for spouse, family, friends, and so forth, but it's love never the less.
Oh YUK! I wouldn't do that for anyone in my family. But then, do I love them? Na.....not that much! |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 22:11:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
These types of love ensured that two individuals would stay together and protect one another and their offspring from dangers. Individuals which did this were more likely to have their offspring survive to mate and passed on the predisposition to these types of love.
Love is more advantageous from a survival standpoint than you think.
Love has nothing to do with survival.
I don't think I would want to have children with someone I 'loved' or cared for deeply.
Snake |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 07:03:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
These types of love ensured that two individuals would stay together and protect one another and their offspring from dangers. Individuals which did this were more likely to have their offspring survive to mate and passed on the predisposition to these types of love.
Love is more advantageous from a survival standpoint than you think.
Love has nothing to do with survival.
I don't think I would want to have children with someone I 'loved' or cared for deeply.
Snake
Your premise is unsupported by history. For a species to survive, it needs to produce children. Without parents that care for children, the children are less likely to survive to mating age.
Love is a mechanism for keeping that advantageous family unit (two people caring for offspring are better than one from a hunter/gatherer perspective) cohesive.
Whether you, personally, would want to produce offspring is anectdotal evidence and logically invalid as being too narrow of a definition. Sorry, Snake/Woody D, you aren't a representative sample of the human race. Any sample of one from a pool of 6 billion is not a representative sample. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 07:43:13 [Permalink]
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| Love is not reproduction. What is love? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 00:14:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Love is not reproduction.
I think you are correct Gorgo.
Val, doesn't know what he's talking about.
My grandparents was an aranged marrage, they had several children. My mother used to say she didn't think her father loved her mother.
Many cultures have such marrages. My 'room mate' also cames from a culture like that and I believe he did say that his parents union was aranged too. His mother was his fathers 2nd wife. History of his family shows that the father was with the 1st wife in between being with his 2nd family. Several children from both wifes. These stories are not isolated incidencs.
Love, again I say, has nothing to do with survival of the species.
Snake |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 05:08:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Love is not reproduction.
I think you are correct Gorgo.
Val, doesn't know what he's talking about.
My grandparents was an aranged marrage, they had several children. My mother used to say she didn't think her father loved her mother.
Many cultures have such marrages. My 'room mate' also cames from a culture like that and I believe he did say that his parents union was aranged too. His mother was his fathers 2nd wife. History of his family shows that the father was with the 1st wife in between being with his 2nd family. Several children from both wifes. These stories are not isolated incidencs.
Love, again I say, has nothing to do with survival of the species.
Snake
Umm. I'm afraid I must disagree.
Our little vampire bat has a very high metabolism, so if it returns to the den without feeding, it is not just hungery, it is close to starvation. If it were to go out the next night unfed, it's chances of feeding will be reduced due to a weakened condition. If it fails again, it will most likely become a dead bat. Dead bats don't seem to reproduce very often. Nor do dead people.
The same applies to us and other species I've mentioned. Without our close, social bonds, our chances of survival become lessened. We rarely do anything of import except as a group or a pair (we'll leave the crazier examples of some Mormons, et al, out of this).
So-called 'love', as we see it, and distilled off to it's basic essence, is a tight bonding between two individuals to the advantage of both. Expanded, it, it is a bonding of the community and the country, again, to the advantage of all. We haven't seen much of this last lately, however, we do see a lot of sub-groups, factions, if you will, bonding quite tightly in order to gain political advantage -- kind'a reminds me of a large, troup of baboons. The faction(s) that succeed will get most of the available 'food'.
'Love' between two people usually results in offspring that recieve devoted care not only from the parents, but their extended families as well. The Theory of Evolution sez that that makes perfect sense. Our species ancestors could not have survived otherwise. Nor could we.
Edited: Gotta change my brand of coffee. I think the crap I'm drinking now is only a little more potent than de-caf.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/26/2003 05:16:26 |
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