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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2003 : 21:44:26 [Permalink]
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Relax, guys. The kids, bless their anarchist, little hearts, done it.
Consider; two of them were already on probation. The third wanted to protect his friends. So, at first, they denied everything from the moon landing to hurricane Isabel, to the minor destruction of property in question. Perfectly natural. Done it myself a time or two.
Look, how hard is it? Gimmie a spool of mason's twine and a pair of bearpaw snowshoes, and I'll shuffle out the Mona Lisa in someone's 'tater patch. It won't take me long to do it, either.
Well, I'm streachin' a little, but damn, if it weren't for the UFO wishful dreamers, this hoax would be so easy that it would't be a whole lot of fun. Lets's give a round of applause to the wishful dreamers. They turn the mundane into the preposterous for the amusment of us all.
I love it!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 22:13:37 [Permalink]
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filthy wrote:quote:
Relax, guys.
Sorry. I just have a hard time relaxing when my arguments are, out of the blue, compared to those of Creationists. Of course, I'm positing wholly-natural explanations for phenomena we know occured, whereas Creationists posit supernatural explanations for phenomena we have no evidence of (PruplePanther's example being Earth's supposed six-day creation). I was troubled even further when 'Panther, like Creationists, went on to deny that the most reasonable explanations of the phenomena we've seen were, indeed, the most reasonable. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 02:59:32 [Permalink]
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You know, I've been scratching my head for years trying to figure this one out. Why would them little green guys, or them little blue guys with the big heads and the big eyes want to talk to us by making pretty little designs in grain?
Then, I just now figured it out. It's an invasion, and their giving us fair warning of an attack. You see, they're real honorable like that.
Plus, that's how they talk back at their home planet. They draw pretty designs in their crop fields that they can only see from the air. Unfortunately, they got to talking so much that they were wiping out more crops than they could plant. Plus, since they had to buzz around in little airplanes to read the writing, and like talking on cell phones and driving, they crashed alot, catching the remaining fields on fire.
Now, they have to invade Earth to insure the survival of their species. They need more farm land to write on.
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!!! |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2003 : 04:38:36 [Permalink]
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This thread seems to have grown legs far longer than the topic warrents. :amusment:
But just for the hell of it, lets say that our happy, little mudball actually has been visited by those who know laws of physics we are not yet privy to (and probably never will be). What would they have found?
They would have observed a planet dominated by a single, prolific, highly aggressive species who's best riff seems to be killing each other and destroying it's own habitate. The odds would be very good toward that species exibiting a flaming xenophobia along with the aggression. This hypothesis would easily be supported by our history and a great many of our writings, religious and otherwise.
Does anyone really think that they'd hang around to crack a brew and shoot the shit? Did they actually learn to harness all those esoteric laws of physics by being stupid? :laughter:
The thing is, I think, that we want to believe we are so important in the universe that some highly advanced, starfaring species would seek us out. Thus far, I've yet to be given a decent reason why this should be so, but there it is. :rolleyes:
Ah well, it's fun. And it gives the good folks in Roswell a modest, tourest industry to milk. Also the Weekly World News can periodicly go all a'twitter over 'Space Aliens Consult With The Prez', a series of storys almost as good as Batboy (who at last report was fighting courageously in Iraq). :hysterics:
And, it gives a pre-harvest diversion to teenage ragamuffins, and ourselves as well. Me, I've enjoyed the show. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2003 : 13:01:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Then, I just now figured it out. It's an invasion, and their giving us fair warning of an attack. You see, they're real honorable like that.
In the movie "Signs" I think the crop-circles were made to indicate "Food cache here!". If you can disregard all obviously blatant logical errors in that movie, it's a really good thriller. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2004 : 13:45:24 [Permalink]
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I know you can't get enough of this stuff, filthy, so here are some snippets from Robert Carroll's latest newsletter:quote:
...either the pranksters would come forth or they wouldn't: If they did, they'd say they did it but some cerealogist would say they were lying. If they didn't, the cerealogist would say these are authentic, meaning they are of non-human origin. Anyway, the pranksters did come forth: four local teenage boys. The night before they messed up farmer Balestra's field they had watched a Discovery Channel show on how pranksters make crop circles in England.
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The design was so intricate, said the Psi Applications folks, that only someone with an advanced knowledge of Euclidean geometry could have made them. How advanced? Well, an aerial photo of the circles reveals that you would have to know that a circle has a radius. This kind of knowledge, as we all know, is very rare among human beings. To believe that some 18-year old humans have such arcane knowledge defies credibility.
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[quoting Joe Nickell] ...there is plenty of corroborative evidence to back the boys' claims. They had a history of mischief and all four were on probation. The mother of one boy confirms that the four arrived home in the early morning hours of June 28, 2003, establishing a clear opportunity to make crop circles in Balestra's fields.
The boys had the proper circle-making tools, including a 75-foot rope and "stalk stomper" devices (boards with rope attached) and blue tape. Only after it was reported that they had blue tape in the July 14, 2003, Vallejo Times-Herald, was the fact that Balestra's wife found bits of blue tape on the scene published.
I hadn't heard about the blue tape before. Interesting. In the PSI Application report, we can find two contradictory statements about the tape. From Jeffrey Wilson:quote:
Although blue tape had not been mentioned in any of the news stories...
And from Michael Miley:quote:
The blue tape Lisa found in the circle had been mentioned on TV several times before the boys made their confession.
At no point in the report (or on the entirety of the PSI Applications website) do the authors appear to attempt to reconcile these two quotes (except for Wilson's attempts to hand-wave the tape away entirely), they simply present both of them as "facts." Once again, this is very sloppy, considering how "authoritative" Moreno and friends think this report is. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 04:19:48 [Permalink]
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Hehehe, I do indeed, love it. It is all so exciting and preposterous, and the people involved so pompously assured, that it makes for wonderful comedy. All it really lacks to join the classics is flying, custard pies.
Thanks for the link -- I hadn't known about the blue tape, either. I wonder what it was used for. It's also been a quite while since I've visited the Mr. Carroll's excellent dictionary, something I need to catch up on.
I wonder how/why so many otherwise sensible people come to believe in such obvious frauds; frauds with only the shakiest (if any) of evidence to support them, and with much simplier (and provable) explanations readily to hand. Is there some gene, a gullibility gene if you will, with which a large percentage of the world's population is afflicted?
It is now winter. I'm hoping someone will go out in the middle of a stubbled, hay meadow somewhere and make some snow circles. Yes, and make them in such a way that there will be no trail in or out. That would be the Alpha and Omega of circles, especally if the area inside the circumfrence was sheeted with dirty ice. I ain't figgered out how to do it, but I'll betcha a dollar bill against a bent nickle that it could be done (I'm lying. I've thought of a way, but it's a little complicated and the time factor is in doubt). 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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PruplePanther
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 10:04:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
filthy wrote:quote:
Relax, guys.
Sorry. I just have a hard time relaxing when my arguments are, out of the blue, compared to those of Creationists. Of course, I'm positing wholly-natural explanations for phenomena we know occured, whereas Creationists posit supernatural explanations for phenomena we have no evidence of (PruplePanther's example being Earth's supposed six-day creation). I was troubled even further when 'Panther, like Creationists, went on to deny that the most reasonable explanations of the phenomena we've seen were, indeed, the most reasonable.
Not to forget Da-Vi-Oh that i started with sneer and chukle but after reading and reading started to wonder. Don't doubt that hoax is top choice. Or was top choice for me until i started READING. Dont see hoax any more except as a hoaxy exception. Have moved "SOMETHING ELSE" choice into top place. Have moved "hoax" into bottom place.
Ur arguments sound like creationists because u seem to have decided beforehand that crop circles must be hoax. Not real. Not mystery to be solved by something more solid than "pranksters". Evolutiion theory took lots of work to develope. Hey POOF! creation was lots easier of explanation. I used to as you think. Hoax. Silliness. Didn't even think about it. Too silly to bother with. But no more.
The only hoax here Dave is the one u are playing on ur self.  
Not meaning to be rude to honorable moderator of course. |
"If I don't know where we are, I can't plot a course home." Major Carter, SG-1 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 14:55:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PruplePanther
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
filthy wrote:quote:
Relax, guys.
Sorry. I just have a hard time relaxing when my arguments are, out of the blue, compared to those of Creationists. Of course, I'm positing wholly-natural explanations for phenomena we know occured, whereas Creationists posit supernatural explanations for phenomena we have no evidence of (PruplePanther's example being Earth's supposed six-day creation). I was troubled even further when 'Panther, like Creationists, went on to deny that the most reasonable explanations of the phenomena we've seen were, indeed, the most reasonable.
Not to forget Da-Vi-Oh that i started with sneer and chukle but after reading and reading started to wonder. Don't doubt that hoax is top choice. Or was top choice for me until i started READING. Dont see hoax any more except as a hoaxy exception. Have moved "SOMETHING ELSE" choice into top place. Have moved "hoax" into bottom place.
Ur arguments sound like creationists because u seem to have decided beforehand that crop circles must be hoax. Not real. Not mystery to be solved by something more solid than "pranksters". Evolutiion theory took lots of work to develope. Hey POOF! creation was lots easier of explanation. I used to as you think. Hoax. Silliness. Didn't even think about it. Too silly to bother with. But no more.
The only hoax here Dave is the one u are playing on ur self.
Not meaning to be rude to honorable moderator of course.
Um..., something else? Ok, please provide an example(s) and evidence to support it/them.
Not taking sides in this argument, but it has always seemed to me that if an explanation for something is reasonably simple (teenage ragamuffins) and has physical support, then the odds are staggeringly in favor of that explanation over the other (extraterrestial visitors, God's farts, and so forth)). Further, the perpetrators of other hoaxs of this sort have come forward and gleefully admitted to it, and demonstrated the method. The only thing I find uncommon about this one is unwarrented booshwa surrounding it, mainly here.
Is another explanation(s) possible? Sure, why not? But Occam's Razor tells us that it/they just ain't on.
Now, nobody loves a good fantasy more than I, but I can't allow that to color my thinking. In this case, with the evidence presented and the history of crop circles in general considered, an hoax is the best, indeed the only probable explanation.
I dearly love a well-thought-out and cleverly executed jape, as well. I wish that I had been the scoundrel who pulled off the Piltdown flim-flam . April fool's is my day, but, I don't let that influence my thoughts, either.
In short, if you have empirical evidence, or a good hypothisis, or even a strong speculation for another explanation, I/we'd be interested in seeing it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 17:52:07 [Permalink]
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No, PruplePanther, I used to think that crop circles were "real," in that they were unexplainable as hoaxes. That was my unthinking, uncritical pre-judgement. After I began to read a bit about them, however, I learned that (A) many pranksters have admitted to making circles, (B) the evidence that "can't be explained" is often sloppy and/or not reproducible, and (C) that "cerealologists" can't tell a "real" crop circle from a "fake" (at least one documentary videoed people making a crop circle, then recorded "experts" claiming that that known fake couldn't have been made by humans).
Given those three things, I changed my mind, and since then have yet to see any good evidence which suggests that any particular formation is not due to human beings. The PSI Applications claims of "chromosome damage" in the Rockville wheat, for example, have not been independently verified.
Human beings are an ordinary and natural explanation for all crop circles, just like evolution is an ordinary and natural explanation for life on Earth. Any extraordinary explanations of crop circles (including simply concluding that "we don't know what made this") will require extraordinary evidence to back them up, just like extraordinary explanations of biota ("Goddidit") require extraordinary evidence.
I, like filthy I think, would be interested to know what things you've read which made you come to a different conclusion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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PruplePanther
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2004 : 08:57:11 [Permalink]
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Looks like we BOTH changed our midns Dave. U went one way and i went the oposite. Wow. How weird. But i think i'm rite and that ur wrong.  |
"If I don't know where we are, I can't plot a course home." Major Carter, SG-1 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 08:29:04 [Permalink]
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Purple you said:
quote:
Ur arguments sound like creationists because u seem to have decided beforehand that crop circles must be hoax. Not real. Not mystery to be solved by something more solid than "pranksters". Evolutiion theory took lots of work to develope. Hey POOF! creation was lots easier of explanation. I used to as you think. Hoax. Silliness. Didn't even think about it. Too silly to bother with. But no more.
I must disagree here. Everyone knows that 'crop circles' are real. The only question, in some peoples minds, is how they are formed. Believing that they are man made is in no way 'like creationists'.
They can't be formed by super natural occurances bcause there is no evidence that there is anything that could be called super natural. There is also no evidence that we are being visited by extra terrestrial beings.
There is evidence that these crop circles are man made. First of all the designs are obviously not natural occurances; no known wind or animal could make such a pattern. There have been several people that have revealed that they made the patterns and have shown how they did it.
Why in the face of the evidence someone would choose to believe that the 'crop circles' are not man made is beyond me. If you critically look at a 'crop circle' and you say that a person could have made it - why, oh why would you then say, 'but I bet it was "something else"? |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 10:12:47 [Permalink]
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Ok, here's a way to prove it beyond even Pruple's doubts:
Wait until a nice, fresh crop circle mysterously appears. Find the exact center of it, get your nose to the ground and look foe a stake hole. It might be a very tiny hole -- I'd use something like a 40 or 60 penny nail, if I were doing it -- but a hole there will be, none the less. And if no hole, the signs one being covered or filled in will be present. If a weight of some sort were used to anchor the guide line (less likely, I think), it's impression would be present, and found by the alert investigator. I have yet to read of this being done. I wonder why.
O'course, the circle could have been made in exactly this manner by aliens with a sense of humor.
Speaking of circles, I had one in my back yard last summer that I know wasn't made by human endevor. It was a fairy ring on mushrooms. Very pretty.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 12:38:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
Purple you said:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ur arguments sound like creationists because u seem to have decided beforehand that crop circles must be hoax. Not real. Not mystery to be solved by something more solid than "pranksters". Evolutiion theory took lots of work to develope. Hey POOF! creation was lots easier of explanation. I used to as you think. Hoax. Silliness. Didn't even think about it. Too silly to bother with. But no more.
I must disagree here. Everyone knows that 'crop circles' are real. The only question, in some peoples minds, is how they are formed. Believing that they are man made is in no way 'like creationists'.
They can't be formed by super natural occurances bcause there is no evidence that there is anything that could be called super natural. There is also no evidence that we are being visited by extra terrestrial beings.
There is evidence that these crop circles are man made. First of all the designs are obviously not natural occurances; no known wind or animal could make such a pattern. There have been several people that have revealed that they made the patterns and have shown how they did it.
Why in the face of the evidence someone would choose to believe that the 'crop circles' are not man made is beyond me. If you critically look at a 'crop circle' and you say that a person could have made it - why, oh why would you then say, 'but I bet it was "something else"?
[/quote]
OK. Most crop circles are, indeed, the work of hoaxers. In the case of elaborate designs, all of them are hoaxes. But a smattering of simple crop circles and irregularly shaped crop indentations are the work of natural forces. Microbursts (Downbursts, Wind Shear).
No aliens, but not all are the work of hoaxers. I some cases, it's the work of nature. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 15:14:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
But a smattering of simple crop circles and irregularly shaped crop indentations are the work of natural forces. Microbursts (Downbursts, Wind Shear).
Agreed. But this is not what the 'croppies' are refering too. We had a microburst on our land that knocked every tree down in a swath about 20 yards wide and about 50 yards long. It looked like a giant foot had come out of the sky. The trees were White Ashes and every one was broken or uprooted in the same direction laying down like dominos. Very impressive. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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